Close Call at South Bend

[bman]

I was comparing laps between last month's Zone 2 event and the David Murry event from this week. Unfortantely, I had a connection problem with my Smarty Cam and didn't get MPH, RPM's, throttle, etc... at David Murry. It recorded lap times but without the other data it was hard to compare segements.

In any case I found this interesting clip from Zone 2 where I come close to losing it in T10. See 1:15. It was only my 2nd event in the GT2 and even though it looks innocent on the video, it was a close call. I had TC on but SC off. I lost my MoJo for the rest of the session and came in early.:( It turned out to be a decent lap but this was the session where I intended to put down something quicker.

Sorry for the poor editing, I intended to edit it to a single lap but somehow I extended it for a lap and 1/2.

22763680

[FTS]

Brian, that is definitely a close call on T10 IMHO. I know how that feels, I had it on the CS couple of times at lower speeds, that would definitely rattle me up too.

As a side note, if you had data to trace out, I could show you exactly how to cut down probably another 3 secs, just on the screen and you'd be amazed. I am not saying this because I am faster, I certainly am not, but you have this nice, calm and calculated driving ability that I know you could just smash your times down without additional risks. It would all show in the data. I don't have your calmness and fluidity, so I struggle to execute on what I know I should be doing. Ohhh how I wish I could show you... :( Get a data logger!!!

[bman]

Ohhh how I wish I could show you... :( Get a data logger!!!


I believe you and I am considering adding a logger.

Did you see Grassroots this month? Peter's article. I'll be reading it again!

Okay, I am being yelled at "get off the computer....it's time to go to brunch" :hello:

[FTS]

Yes, of course I read it, good tid bits. You should see the analysis he did on my driving from the same event, priceless ;)

[SH || NC]

You tracked out, put a wheel on the strips, and the rear end got loose? Maybe due to wetness? It looked kinda damp. Looks like you caught it smoothly. What kind of set up are you running?

South Bend is such a pucker area, but I love it.

[TRAKCAR]

Ha, you edit film? I'm too laze, I upload the whole thing ;-)

Nice, fast driving!
Looks like you just got on some dirt or wet, did not drop a wheel I think, but could be. You caught it nice and smooth.

[930man]

looks like just a weight shift .. more gas coming outta there~!!
Try a lil later turn in @the 2 entrance turns of the esses...@ the 48 sec mark seams to mellow the whole esses some ... just a opinion

[landjet]

Brian, that looked more like a hiccup than a close call. I too thought you dropped a wheel as you were very close to the edge.

[bman]

What kind of set up are you running?


Pretty much stock '08 GT2 but with re-ramped diff and steel brakes. R6 tires in this run.

Ha, you edit film? I'm too laze.

Too busy is probably more accurate! Too busy driving that is......:D

Try a lil later turn in @the 2 entrance turns of the esses...@ the 48 sec mark seams to mellow the whole esses some ... just a opinion

Lower esses? Yeah, I am not hitting my marks evertime through there. Trailing throttle and rotating the car at that turn in. Ironically my low polar moment Cayman would rotate more than the GT2. I am assuming it's due to the more aggressive diff but I am not sure.

Brian, that looked more like a hiccup than a close call. I too thought you dropped a wheel as you were very close to the edge.

There was some mud on the curbing and I just dropped a small piece of the tire off. I could really feel the car wanting to twist from the change in grip. Several people, who have lost it there, told me the spin was too fast to catch. I was lucky....

[TRAKCAR]

Luck is good!

Too busy is probably more accurate! Too busy driving that is......:D
Very busy looking for front rotors and pad options today..

[Dell]

I'd have to concur with Matt (930man) on the weight shift. Looks like you were not on the power soon enough to get rear traction. By looking at the display data you were in the 40-50% throttle range, no? Leaving the rear end light in that track out position is what will result in the tail kicking out like that. Smooth recovery though!

FYI....my throttle application there is roughly 50% at apex leading to 100% by track out.

[FTS]

Ironically my low polar moment Cayman would rotate more than the GT2. I am assuming it's due to the more aggressive diff but I am not sure.

Or weight; your GT2 is probably somewhere between 250-350 lbs heavier than your CS.

[bman]

I'd have to concur with Matt (930man) on the weight shift. Looks like you were not on the power soon enough to get rear traction. .

I wasn't clear on Matt's input because he mentions the 48 second mark which was the entry to the lower esses. But I think the same applies....I need to take advantage of the rear grip. I've never driven a 911 before, let alone one this powerful, so there's much to learn and understand.

During my track walk last week the pro driver insisted that you touch the left curbing in T10. If not, you'll track out too wide and won't be able to apply full throttle or open the wheel soon enough. I was intentionally staying off the curbing, so I've got work to do in that corner.

Or weight; your GT2 is probably somewhere between 250-350 lbs heavier than your CS.

She is a bit piggy!

[Dell]

Correct, over the curbing (or as close as you can get to give max track) on the inside of T10 and graze (but don't unsettle) the curbing on track out. It's an EARLY turn-in. The later you turn in the more steering angle you must give and the domino effect of weight transfer starts to multiply quickly.

[bman]

It's an EARLY turn-in .

And BLIND turn in....that's where I am struggling. Can't seem to find a consistent turn in point. I've got a tendency to over brake too, most likely due to the lack of confidence with the turn in point.

Thanks for your help!

[Dell]

Luke, use the force :)

[jenk12m]

more seat and you will get very comfortable in that beast, i wish i could of made that event

[930man]

i need to send you some video! it will help a bunch ... dell has some also .. dell you still have that day you me J mac??

[FTS]

i need to send you some video! it will help a bunch ... dell has some also .. dell you still have that day you me J mac??
Post it here please, let's all see it :)

You know, one thing I keep judiciously avoiding is actually touching the curb on the inside of T10, and you guys are actually recommending that. I feel the car unsettles too much to be safe at that speed.

[930man]

More power is always ok in a 911... what the difference if you go off couple miles an hour faster... if you you don't have throttle input you don't have grip in a 911.. not enough throttle thats all.

I need to find Vid of me breaking a sway bar mounts entering south bend at 110 mph.. you hear it snap,, then all hell breaks loose but we handle it! lol

[930man]

Post it here please, let's all see it :)

You know, one thing I keep judiciously avoiding is actually touching the curb on the inside of T10, and you guys are actually recommending that. I feel the car unsettles too much to be safe at that speed.

I call BS ,, you dont need to touch curb,, no reason to un settle the car if you dont need to.,.. the theory is to let the car unwind and not to pinch it .. so they say let it hit the curbing so you wont pinch the car... enter a bit early and let it drift out!

[930man]

Oh Yeah... ALWAYS be ready to unwind the wheel!!! then you can meet Dell on back straight ,,, but you may have some grass on bumper but no Tire wall!!!!!

[Dell]

Ask and ye shall receive: LINK (http://vimeo.com/1505525)

1505525

What blows me away every time I watch that video is the frickin power of your GT2 and Jim's C6R. I had to pull out every trick I knew to stick with y'all. If I was running 2:03's y'all had to be running 2:00 to 2:01 as you easily had 2-3 seconds on me from hogpen to the start/finish.

That was the most fun I have ever had on track. Damn I miss those days :(

[930man]

funny thing was i think i had 16 heat cycles on those Dunlops!! but i did have some pwer and motons in my favor! :)...

[930man]

i need to post some of the lil straight 6 M3! lol that car turned a 1:57! lmao

[Dell]

The power was amazing! get to Oak Tree and then we'd hit the back and then WHOOOOOOOOOSH....bye-bye Matt! I was braking between the 1 and the arrow (about the 50 ft mark LOL!) just to gain every advantage I could. Talk about attachment check......trailbraking at T14 coming in at 155 down to 2nd gear.

[Dell]

I'm going backwards. Now I'm tracking my street 996 Turbo 3-4 times a year. 2:08's feel like eternity. BUT I AM NOT DOING SUSPENSION, ETC! She is my weekend fun car.

Damn, getting late....I'm off to bed. The Grey Goose was flowing tonight and the morning is coming quick. See you in a few weeks for the FSR event at VIR?

[930man]

yes sir!!!! fun days!!!!!!
we had some fun!!!!

[FTS]

Ask and ye shall receive: LINK (http://vimeo.com/1505525)

That was the most fun I have ever had on track. Damn I miss those days :(
I have no word man, just no words ::-/ I am not that comfortable running like that, especially on upper essess and T10, just amazing.

I am going to use this as the next video of the week, hope you don't mind.

[jenk12m]

Damn iPad won't let me see the vid, to lazy to pull the laptop out. Ha

[Dell]

I have no word man, just no words ::-/ I am not that comfortable running like that, especially on upper essess and T10, just amazing.

I am going to use this as the next video of the week, hope you don't mind.

Absolutely. Great 3 lap sequence to get the blood pressure up that never gets old watching. As long as you don't hold the exuberant Whoa! and Oh Yeah! when I hit the clag at the top of the esses tracking out before Southbend :eek: and whne I realize I finally hit my best of 2:03. :-DD

[SH || NC]

I watch this video and my 214 video to get prepped for VIR. :cool:

[bman]

I call BS ,, you dont need to touch curb,, no reason to un settle the car if you dont need to.

I don't like the idea of hitting the curb either. I am already struggling to get the car to settle on turn in......too much brake :beatinghead:

Ask and ye shall receive: LINK (http://vimeo.com/1505525)



Thanks for making my 2:06's feel :o :)

Really, thanks! I will watch this more closely and try to learn from it. Just from a quick glance I see your line through 14-14a is much different than mine....your's more similar to the Pro that drove my car.

What are you driving in this video?

[Dell]

Car is a street 996 GT3. monoball suspension and motons.

The line through T14 allows me to brake VERY DEEP and carry much more speed into "roller coaster". It straightens out the transition so the 2 direction change trailbrake is less of a weight shift. When I started to really get my times low enough where I was counting tenths instead of seconds, my coach introduced me to that line. You just have to have 100% confidence in your skillset since you are braking about the 50-75 foot brake marker (between the 1 and the turn-in arrow) at 155-165mph and trailing through both T14 and T14a. But once you hit it, it is sublime.

As far as the curbing. Going over T10 is no big deal if the suspension is dialed in properly. It is the track out curbing that you want to either miss or slightly graze. The key to getting your braking and turn-in nailed down is make sure you are on throttle coming out of the esses and then IMMEDIATELY after you go over the crest (between T9-T10) hit the brakes (hard but not unsettling) downshift and then back on the throttle to gain rear-end grip turning in. Another one of those places where once it all comes together it is sublime.

For me, southbend is on of those places on track I was terrified of until I nailed it. Now I know what I (and the car) are capable of and never cross that line :)

[TRAKCAR]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goB2-lpQ88g&feature=player_embedded#at=240

This is from last year 2.06's. Toyo RA1 and Pagid 29 CUP LSD.
This year I think I drove better but tires and brakes only let me do 1 2.077 and a bunch of 2.08's. Warmer too, I could stay in 5th into T14 this year coming out of the Oak tree faster.

Changes from last year compared to this year (Video stuck in my car until laptop fixed)
Please critique, I like free coaching ;-)

Changes already made this year:
Oak tree is faster in 3rd and T1 is tighter/ faster now due to less aggressive LSD.
I was still shifting to 4th after T5, I think I should use the lift before T5 to shift to forth to get a more stable faster run to the esses. I do use the first 2 curbs in the esses.
I shift very sloooow, I know.

[SH || NC]

Nice driving.

[TRAKCAR]

Thanks for making my 2:06's feel :o :)


+1!

[Dell]

Nice couple of laps!

The only input I can offer is a few small tweaks here are there to gain time.

T1-->Get tighter. All the grip is on the inside line. Also, grab second and short shift to third just after track out heading to T2. Staying in third gives back several tenths.

T3-->Again, a bit tighter and earlier. The later the turn in the more steering angle and greater weight shift.

T4-->Grab 2nd and then short shirt to 3rd on the way to T5. This will grab another few tenths.

T7-T8 transition-->Stay a bit further left at T7 turn-in and wait a split second longer before turning up to T8. This offers to major benefits. The first is the longer you wait to turn up the esses the straighter the line to the top becomes (so less steering input). The second benefit is that your steering angle will be easier to have at neutral as you crest T8. 99% of the cars that lose it in the esses (from videos I have watched) seem to be from having steering input as you crest T8. T8 is deceiving since it really unloads the rear end.

T10-->Again, just clean up the braking and turn in a tick sooner.

T14-->Grab 2nd just before the right-hander down the roller coaster and then short shift to 3rd in between T14a and T15. I've tried both and the data shows that extra burst of speed from 2nd grabs you another few tenths.

T15-T16-->Don't grab 4th. Take 3rd to the top. You should be just about redline in 3rd as you hit your brake point for T16. This keeps you in the meat of the power for hogpen. You'll grab 4th on the exit of Hogpen.

By the way, very smooth with the hands. Great driving!

[jenk12m]

i'll have to remember all this for when i make it back to VIR, thanks Dell

[Dell]

Very welcome! By the way, don't you "technically" have a job today? Getting closer. Pulling for y'all!

[jenk12m]

dell, i just watched your vid. nice driving and i like the woohoos!!! haha

[Dell]

Just one of those moments when I felt like a kid all over again :)

[jenk12m]

i totally understand those moments...

i have a job but dont have a job. then i can go to my job but i cant do anything there or talk to anybody. its ridiculous!!

[Dell]

I'm actually watching ESPN right now listening to it as a nice diversion from work. However, the diversion is a bunch of contradiction. You are allowed to go to work but the doors are locked or all the staff has been sent home. How y'all keep your heads screwed on right is beyond me. Hang in there.

[FTS]

I'm not even going to ask... :p

[bman]

The line through T14 allows me to brake VERY DEEP and carry much more speed into "roller coaster". It straightens out the transition so the 2 direction change trailbrake is less of a weight shift.

The key to (T10) getting your braking and turn-in nailed down



Sorry to keep the questions coming but how do you deal with the slight left hand entry up the hill under hard braking? Do you breathe off ever so slightly to add that touch of steering and then hard on it again? Or are you already turning in when you go to the brake? Late for me is the 2 marker (2 1/2 normally). I know I can go deeper but what's holding me back is that slight turn in. I KNOW you're NOT recommending this, I am just curious how you deal with that slight turn in.

For T10, are you fully off the brake (and on the gas) before adding ANY steering? Or do you have a touch of brake as you begin turn in?

Thanks!!!!


T7-T8 transition-->Stay a bit further left at T7 turn-in and wait a split second longer before turning up to T8.

Can't agree more with this one. Staying left and waiting a split second works amazingly well. But at 125+MPH it takes some getting use to.

i like the woohoos!!! haha

I must be running with the wrong people....I've never WooHoo'd chasing FTS around :p

This is from last year 2.06's. Toyo RA1 and Pagid 29 CUP LSD.
This year I think I drove better .

Nice Peter! I regret that we didn't run together at David Murry. Next time...

[jenk12m]

I'm not even going to ask... :p
Please do, no worries

[FTS]

For T10, are you fully off the brake (and on the gas) before adding ANY steering? Or do you have a touch of brake as you begin turn in?
Talking with Peter Krouse on this about my driving, he recommended starting the braking at the turn-in. I told him I'd rather play with smaller balls...::-/



I must be running with the wrong people....I've never WooHoo'd chasing FTS around :p
Of course you are running with the wrong people, I should say "were." I WooHoo'd chasing you :D

Please do, no worries
I won't here. Hopefully I'll see you and Dell at VIR next month and we'll make a dinner conversation ;)

[jenk12m]

Don't know if I will make it next month but I do plan on attending the PCA zone 2 club race in June. I had a blast last year and had more track time than I could handle

[FTS]

There is track time during the club race, I assume for advanced drivers?

Never mind, found the info, I will put it in the calendar. Btw, if any one has events to advertise, I cannot keep up with all the track and social events that PCA puts out, let alone other clubs, please feel free to add them to the Register's calendar.

[FTS]

This turned out to be a great thread, very informative. So with the risk of being an a$$, as the contrarian I am, I'll add few of my notes with no offense intended to anyone.

This is from last year 2.06's. Toyo RA1 and Pagid 29 CUP LSD.
How is the lock ups set up with the cup LSD?

...Please critique, I like free coaching ;-)I'll give my 2 cents:


T1: I don't think you are trailing the brakes enough and missed the apex on both of your fast laps. On the first lap, you also turned in too late IMHO. In my experience turning in early with very slight steering while trailing the brakes until the car attitude is right for throttle nets as much as 0.7 seconds just on the braking zone alone.
T2: for some reason you short shift to 4th gear and probably lost 0.5 secs because of that. Stay on 3rd.
T3: as others mentioned, you can turn in earlier and let it drift with speed with less steering.
T6-6a: I'd stay off the curbs there. Our friend hit the bridge during Zone 2 event, because he put the left rear on dirt on 6a and lost the control. Going over the curbs really does not add to speed or take less time that has any significance.
UpHill eSess: I used to take your line, albeit much slower. Although it is counter intuitive, adding some curves to your line while avoiding all the curbs makes the car feel more settled and much more confidence inspiring. Just wait a split sec more before your turn ins. Just like Dell describes, it works much better.
I was criticized for taking Oak Tree similar to you because I was abusing the tires and sliding the car too much for that turn. I was told by a coach to brake later after T10 and trail the brakes until the attitude of the car at Oak Tree is right and then get on gas hard. Something for you think about and to work on for me ;)
We can all brake later into T14 as Dell mentions.

Dell, I hope you don't mind if I disagree with you on couple of things ;)


T1-->Get tighter. All the grip is on the inside line. Also, grab second and short shift to third just after track out heading to T2. Staying in third gives back several tenths.
I've had this discussion so many times, I lost count, and it applies to several other places as a general practice for me. Your technique actually penalizes you more than providing gains. Shifting down/up is at least a 0.4-0.5 sec activity, in which you are off the gas and actually decelerating. The LongG generated in second gear is about 0.4-0.45 vs 3rd gear of about 0.35. Lifting off throttle generates a negative LongG of about 0.14 to 0.18 at that speed. So, shifting from 2nd to 3rd actually nets you a loss of about 0.1 to 0.2 secs in that corner. It feels faster, but I haven't seen any data that shows gains.

T4-->Grab 2nd and then short shirt to 3rd on the way to T5. This will grab another few tenths.
Same point as T1 for me. Although with the GT3 having 8500 rpm it is possible to ride 2nd gear all the way past T6; however, you are adding one more shift than necessary IMHO. Taking T4 with 3rd, you can ride the throttle all the way to the bridge straight. And since you have to short shift from 2nd to 3rd in your technique, lifting off throttle turning into T5, you are not able to take full advantage of the torque that comes only at full throttle, so no gain from 2nd gear, but actually loss of few tenths.

T14-->Grab 2nd just before the right-hander down the roller coaster and then short shift to 3rd in between T14a and T15. I've tried both and the data shows that extra burst of speed from 2nd grabs you another few tenths.
I don't think you can be on full throttle into T15 on second gear, so no torque advantage, and you are short shifting, so the net is again a loss due to shifting activity. Staying on 3rd, you can be on full throttle, full torque available and don't lift until trailing the brakes into T16.

One of the most common mistakes we make I believe is go with what feels fast without knowing what is actually fast. I am not saying this because I am fast, clearly not as much as Dell or many others, but looking at data and painstakingly analyzing every single corner. I collected so many instances of data from VIR and Summit about this 2nd vs. 3rd vs. 4th gear stuff that, to me there is no argument. But I have been proven wrong many times before ;)

darn it, where is the emoticon that hides behind a wall? Pete, we need that one buddy!

[TRAKCAR]

I'll give my 2 cents:


T1: I don't think you are trailing the brakes enough and missed the apex on both of your fast laps. On the first lap, you also turned in too late IMHO. In my experience turning in early with very slight steering while trailing the brakes until the car attitude is right for throttle nets as much as 0.7 seconds just on the braking zone alone.
T2: for some reason you short shift to 4th gear and probably lost 0.5 secs because of that. Stay on 3rd.
T3: as others mentioned, you can turn in earlier and let it drift with speed with less steering.
T6-6a: I'd stay off the curbs there. Our friend hit the bridge during Zone 2 event, because he put the left rear on dirt on 6a and lost the control. Going over the curbs really does not add to speed or take less time that has any significance.
UpHill eSess: I used to take your line, albeit much slower. Although it is counter intuitive, adding some curves to your line while avoiding all the curbs makes the car feel more settled and much more confidence inspiring. Just wait a split sec more before your turn ins. Just like Dell describes, it works much better.
I was criticized for taking Oak Tree similar to you because I was abusing the tires and sliding the car too much for that turn. I was told by a coach to brake later after T10 and trail the brakes until the attitude of the car at Oak Tree is right and then get on gas hard. Something for you think about and to work on for me ;)
We can all brake later into T14 as Dell mentions.



Thanks Fatih!
I will try to post this years lap. Slower but I think I drove better and did some of what you mention above.

[Dell]

No worries disagreeing. The discussion is what fosters the best result for everybody.

Keep in mind all of my comments and suggestions are based on my 996 GT3 so it might be different for y'all with higher redline and a significant amount of more power.

As far as the 2nd versus 3rd gear I would have to find the data files but I tried it both ways and the data clearly showed I was faster. The delta between accel in 2nd + shift 3rd is faster than just accel in 3rd. There is no low end power in the GT3 and falling outside the meat of the power (up at top) you are really giving back time.

There is no way for me to take 2nd to T6 or I'd be bouncing off the rev limiter.

The T4->T5 transition was also faster in 2nd versus 3rd.

With all of that said, it is easier to take 3rd instead of 2nd in those spots since you can be WOT without all the torque of the top of the power band. But make no mistake, your accel is slower in 3rd.

Again with T14a->T15 taking 2nd is faster. I didn't believe it and had to run it both ways with data to show the time I was picking up.

I'd have to find the data files but I have countless files from VIR and finding that test file would be like finding a needle in a haystack. At least I have a project for this event! :)

[jenk12m]

dell, did you have shorter gearing in your 996 like the current RS does. the .2RS gearing is a lot shorter than the .2 non RS.

[FTS]

Man, finally someone who keeps data files and actually looks at them! :D It would be great to compare some data, even if it is 996. May be we can look at data together next month when we find the time.

I found a geek! I found a geek! :kiss:

[jenk12m]

i like me some curbs
http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/5479/zone2june6678w.jpg

[jenk12m]

been known to scare people some times too. lol
http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/3484/zone2june0778.jpg

[FTS]

naughty naughty!

:D

[jenk12m]

haha, i didnt do it on purpose...

with all this info, i cant wait to get back to VIR

[Dell]

dell, did you have shorter gearing in your 996 like the current RS does. the .2RS gearing is a lot shorter than the .2 non RS.
1st and 2nd were stock. 3rd-6th were shorter.


Man, finally someone who keeps data files and actually looks at them! :D It would be great to compare some data, even if it is 996. May be we can look at data together next month when we find the time.

I found a geek! I found a geek! :kiss:
I am a total stats geek. The only way I got faster was data analysis :-8

i like me some curbs

Nice! :-DD

[Dell]

As far as the differences we have about which gear, etc, the bottom line is that data doesn't lie. I strongly encourage anybody that has data to really use it as a teaching and learning tool. Instead of trying to run the fastest lap every single time out, just work on specific sections the best of your ability and try them a few different ways. Then do sector analysis to let the data do the talking.

[SH || NC]

Fatih, if you know AIM stuff, I could use your help insetting up some review protocols. :)

[FTS]

As far as the differences we have about which gear, etc, the bottom line is that data doesn't lie. I strongly encourage anybody that has data to really use it as a teaching and learning tool. Instead of trying to run the fastest lap every single time out, just work on specific sections the best of your ability and try them a few different ways. Then do sector analysis to let the data do the talking.

:-DD:-DD:-DD:pals:

I have been preaching this for the last several years; yeah baby!!!

[jenk12m]

i never really was into to the data side until i got some coaching from seth thomas and he would drive my car, then i would drive and we would immediately pull up the data to compare. he showed me a lot with the whole time gap vs distance, acce/braking vs distance etc. but i still have a lot to learn to fully understand everything

[Dell]

It can get overwhelming I agree but as long as you have somebody that knows how to read the data or at least teach some basic interpretation then the benefit is huge. Having somebody put some data down for you in your car and then comparing yours will really show the places for improvement.

The other thing that data taught me is what the CAR is capable of. There are corners on tracks that aesthetically scare the crap out of us and we "think" we are at the limit. Then you see the data and know the car is capable of more latG.

All this talk has got me itching to go hit the circuit!

[FTS]

What do you guys use for logging?

[Dell]

My butt.

[Dell]

Just kidding. Couldn't resist :)

I use Traqmate.

[SH || NC]

AIM, Evo4, with ECU and GPS data

[TRAKCAR]

I use Traqmate.


Sorry to hear that. Me too.

[Dell]

You don't like TM?

[TRAKCAR]

Hate it with a passion. I should file suit for the "timing made easy" slogan.
Their support and manuals are insulting.
The software has not been updated for years. Not sure if the company is still active besides selling what they developed years ago.

[Dell]

I have never needed to contact their support so I can't speak from experience. The software though I did find very easy to learn and use.

[TRAKCAR]

I have tried. They just lck you out of the forum when you show frustration.

The first years I owned it no local supprt and it never worked right.
After local support (great guy) started to exist it sometimes works.

Just spent 3 hours yesterday to get data on my laptop.
I could not do it, can't find the port. This is new problem but it is something every time.

In typical Traqmate style there is no solution, except try to reboot and maybe the 50th time it will work. I work hard to discourange anyone to invest in Traqmate, because they see the cool video and think it works great.

I have too much $$ invested to buy something else now, but will as soon as I find a better supported alternative.

[Dell]

If it is any consolation I agree with you that support is vital. I can say AIM has fantastic support. I had AIM (MXL Pista) in my last two race cars (RS America and Spec Boxster) and it is phenomenal how powerful it is. The other side of that is you need a course in how to really learn the software. I let my engineer do the data interpretation for me and it was usually between sessions.

[TRAKCAR]

Yes, I looked at AIM, Vbox and Racekeeper but I wanted to wait to see if any company would take the lead for wide spread support. Orbit is just starting to use VBox. It looks nice, but I wanted them to get a bit more experience before I garbage the Traqmate, but now it has become totally useless, except for seeing my laptimes as I pass start/finish.

[FTS]

One thing that would be really nice if we can choose something for our Register members, so we can share files across the board. I am not sure there is an ideal setup that will please everyone, but at least for DE purposes, we would need something reliable with support and easy to use.

Frankly, the RacePak unit I have, has been very reliable, almost fire-and-forget type if you don't worry about the TPS, RPM and other electrical connections as options, and their support has been superb. When I have an issue with the software, they remotely connect to my laptop and do things for me :) What is not so nice is the Datalink software, cumbersome and complex at best.

So now I am looking at this: http://www.chasecam.com/catalog/29/dm10datamodule

The software seems to be very good as I hear, the new version, cheap, auto video/data integration and reliable ODBII connection via ODBII cable, so single cable, you get all. It is still lacking yaw readings, but for the price, I can live with it.

[Dell]

The only problem with Chasecam is their video systems. They are horribly unreliable. Systems like the POV-VIO 1.5, the GoPro HD, and even SmartyCam are the preferred solutions. If I went with an all-in-one solution I would go with SmartyCam. Scott has the setup and it is very cool.

[FTS]

But how do you get the data out of SmartyCam to do actual analysis, not just show-and-tell?

[SH || NC]

The SC is tough to beat for and all-in-one for:


laptimes and speeds (based off GPS)
G meter
video with data overlay in one shot

Its rechargeable and can last a full day, and the video is easy to pull off of the micro SD.

However, if you want RPM, throttle, brake, etc, you need an ECU bridge, which I did install myself without too much issue; this setup however still isn't a true datalogger; I've heard it might be in the future though.

I am now running the EVO4 + MyChron3 + SC. (link (http://www.aim-sportline.com/pages/car/section_car.htm)) (link (http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/996-gt2-gt3-forum/616374-2011-prep-pmna-tarett-alignment-aim-data-and-dash-bk-write-up-and-pics.html?highlight=AIM))

[SH || NC]

AIM setup is only a true data logger with an EVO or other datalogger unit; the SC only does video with the data overlay.

I think its time to break this out into another thread. :>)

[Dell]

Fatih, Scott just covered it. With that said, SmartyCam has the ability to provide the data file if that open that open to the end user. But right now, it is just overlay with the data file locked inside :(

My reco for SC was based on the poor performance of the ChaseCam camera systems.

[FTS]

Data loggers are definitely another thread. I am working on an approach, but I still need few weeks to possibly bring an option for our Register. We'll see...

[FFaust]

one thing that would be really nice if we can choose something for our register members, so we can share files across the board. I am not sure there is an ideal setup that will please everyone, but at least for de purposes, we would need something reliable with support and easy to use.
+911

[TRAKCAR]

I just overnighted my Trackmate Display Unit to Traqmate in a last ditch effort..

[930man]

I was referring to street cars.. I beat the crap outta the gators on my race car!

[TRAKCAR]

I put these side by side:

I think it is all tire grip, brakes and LSD, I seem to drive the same?
Rear tires because they were corded day one and full thread day 2, the front hooks up much better but that is because LSD losened up, the front tires I had in 2011 were about 12/13 days old.

2010 Much faster through sweepers, ass planted much more. What I lose in T1 I make more than up through S-es. Temps were colder needed 6th. on back straight, even coming out of Oaktree slower in 2nd.
2011 Much faster through T1 and oaktree.

Next time I will try short shifting through the small first S-es.

2010 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goB2-lpQ88g&feature=player_embedded#at=240
2011 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqQ2K0pTwo4

[FTS]

It is hard to find fault from the videos given the corded/used up tires; without grip and/or full braking ability that comes with new pads, it is hard to do any better IMHO, but here it goes:


I really think you are loosing time by shifting to 4th and back down to 3rd between T1 adn T3. And because you are down shifting to 3rd at the entry of T3, you Vmin was a little too low laps 2 and 3.
I know you can carry more speed through T5a, you just don't seem to be committed to the turn enough may be.
The uphill esses, T10 seems great, but you are over-braking into T11, and then turning in a little too early into T11a (Oak Tree), your Vmin is in the low 40s, whereas you can keep it up to higher 40s (48-49 mph).
You top speed is lower than I expected, only about 2-3 mph higher than mine, I wonder if you're car is heavier than mine, but I would have expected a little higher on the straights
Going into T16 and taking Hog Pen in 4th I think results in a very slight lower speed that may be impacting you on the front straight rather than the Hog Pen itself. You maybe overbraking into T16, it seemed like you could wait tiny bit longer before hitting the brakes, but hard to tell with the vid only.


Cheers,

[TRAKCAR]

Thanks Fatih!
:pals:

I really think you are loosing time by shifting to 4th and back down to 3rd between T1 adn T3. And because you are down shifting to 3rd at the entry of T3, you Vmin was a little too low laps 2 and 3.
I wish you were right, I partly agree. I tried, but hate bouncing the car off the rev limiter. Rev limiter messes with balance too even if it would be faster, I could learn to drive it I guess, but just hate the sound, feeling and TypeI overrevs.
It is faster in T14. No rev limiter there, but I went to 6 if I was not on a good flyer lap. You are right in that I overslow the car still.

I know you can carry more speed through T5a, you just don't seem to be committed to the turn enough may be.
I agree looking at the video, I really tried but I screwed up often and slid over 5b. Sometimes rear, sometimes front washed out.
Taking it in 4th. might settle the car better? Needs work for sure, just not sure how yet.

The uphill esses, T10 seems great, but you are over-braking into T11, and then turning in a little too early into T11a (Oak Tree), your Vmin is in the low 40s, whereas you can keep it up to higher 40s (48-49 mph).
Need coaching there too. I had it so side ways into T11 and on my way to Oaktree, slowing me down through oaktree so many time, I backed it up to make sure I got it right through Oaktree.

You top speed is lower than I expected, only about 2-3 mph higher than mine, I wonder if you're car is heavier than mine, but I would have expected a little higher on the straights
Non RS is always slower. More wing and wide body. At Sebring we can pass CUP cars in MKI GT3, they are faster out of the corner because of gearing, but than we'd catch up on longer gearing with much less drag. Same here.

Going into T16 and taking Hog Pen in 4th I think results in a very slight lower speed that may be impacting you on the front straight rather than the Hog Pen itself. You maybe overbraking into T16, it seemed like you could wait tiny bit longer before hitting the brakes, but hard to tell with the vid only.
Agreed completely, each time I tried to brake a little later/less I could not keep my foot going down onto front straight. I tried 3rd. but upset my flow and made it even more difficlt to keep therear planted. Here I know what to do, but can't :-DDD

[jenk12m]

Thanks for the comparison vids, I really need to get back to VIR

[930man]

Thanks for the comparison vids, I really need to get back to VIR

yes you do!

[jenk12m]

When will you be back

[FTS]

Since this thread is centered around South Bend and we are scheduled to go to VIR coming weekend, just a cautionary vid from this weekends' Grand-Am race, the Boxster Crash, courtesy of Deman Motorsport:

XN1anqmv8H4

[Dell]

I'll be dialing back my driving this weekend :)

[FTS]

I am not so sure Dell, there a lot of people coming from across the whole country just to drive with you, including some drivers that got in at the last moment for the privilege ;)

:D

[SH || NC]

I think one has to keep this in perspective; no one should be scared of SB. Danger awaits anywhere on track when missteps are made, not just SB.

[Dell]

I am not so sure Dell, there a lot of people coming from across the whole country just to drive with you, including some drivers that got in at the last moment for the privilege ;)

:D
:-DDD:-))):ROFL!:

Fine, I'll step it up.

[bman]

Since this thread is centered around South Bend and we are scheduled to go to VIR coming weekend, just a cautionary vid from this weekends' Grand-Am race, the Boxster Crash, courtesy of Deman Motorsport:


Quite a few offs in South Bend in the Rolex race too. And hog pen!

I was running with some of the Deman Boxsters at the David Murry event last month.


I'll be dialing back my driving this weekend :)

What does dial back mean? 2:04? ;)

[Dell]

what does dial back mean? 2:04? ;)

Give or take a few :ROFL!:

[Trackrat]

Ugh that Boxster roll was nasty. What got him (aside from running off the right side)? That initial jerk to the left (:14-:15) I guess set the final result in motion? I always like to try and learn from this stuff if possible.

[Dell]

I will say that the jerk to the left at :14 was probably not driver input but terrain undulation forcing the wheel left. As far as the rest, I'll keep silent in a public forum :)

[24Chromium]

Bman, I noticed you shuffle steering in your vid. I strongly urge you to avoid that habit. There is simply no need for you to ever move your hands from the 10/2 o'clock position on the wheel on a race track. Try it and see how you do, then report back.

[24Chromium]

I will say that the jerk to the left at :14 was probably not driver input but terrain undulation forcing the wheel left. As far as the rest, I'll keep silent in a public forum :)

After watching this one repeatedly, my guess is that he was too focused on the car in front of him and not driving his own line. There didn't seem to be any other explanation as for why he drove it off the road. Once he was off, he was toast, as the ruts were obviously very deep. I agree with Dell in thinking that is what caused the wheel to jerk (it was the rut, not the drivers input). Glad to hear he's O.K. Be safe out there, kids! Keep the shiny side UP!

[Dell]

Agree 100% with 24Cr.

There is no reason to remove your hands from the wheel. Couple reasons: 1. If the wheel shifts unexpectedly you have lost control of the wheel. 2. There are NO places on any track where you will require more than 180 degrees of input or correction. 3. By shuffle steering you can very easily lose focus what direction your wheels are pointed. With your hand always at 9/3 (or 10/2) you will always know what direction your wheels are pointed. This is crucial in determining slip angle and slip angle correction. Remember, you feel the physics of what the front end of the car is doing through the wheel. More data input is better.

[bman]

Bman, I noticed you shuffle steering in your vid. I strongly urge you to avoid that habit. There is simply no need for you to ever move your hands from the 10/2 o'clock position on the wheel on a race track. Try it and see how you do, then report back.

Agree 100% with 24Cr.
There are NO places on any track where you will require more than 180 degrees of input or correction. .

Thanks for the feedback!

I've been working to reduce my shuffle steering over the last year. In the process, I've actually gotten the opposite feedback from others when I stopped moving my hands totally. Comments have been "your hands are too crossed". So is that an indication that I'm turning in too late?

I'm still relatively new to the track with 2 years of driving. Luckily I haven't developed too much muscle memory and can make changes. I've got 3 days at VIR to work on it this weekend.:) Dell.....looking forward to meeting you and getting more tips!!!

[Dell]

Looking forward to it as well! And thank you for taking the constructive tips. I am always hesitant to offer advice. I still have PTSD from all the smackdowns you see on Rennlist when advice is offered up.

I wouldn't necessarily say that you are turning in too late but that would definitely contribute to increased steering angle. I would have to see the steering angle input. It's great that you have video as we can always use that to verify. The places we will really check for steering angle input is T4 (Left Hook), T11a (Oak Tree), and T14a (Roller Coaster).

[bman]

And thank you for taking the constructive tips.

The places we will really check for steering angle input is T4 (Left Hook), T11a (Oak Tree), and T14a (Roller Coaster).

How can anyone not appreciate it when someone takes the time to watch and comment? I've been know to buy a few drinks in appreciation :-8

That's where I watched yours and it looks like you're crossed over, just slightly and very briefly, in those corners. I need to watch footage of when I was not releasing the wheel......I think I was crossing over more than you, probably because I was turning in later and adding more steering. I've changed my line since then, so I'll work on holding my hands this weekend and see how it feels/works.

I really don't understand "determining slip angle and slip angle correction". I understand the meaning and concept but don't know how reconginize, apply or correct it effectively. Should make for good apres' track discussion.

[Dell]

Slip angle is probably easier to explain over a beer :)

However, the quick explanation is that when you deform the contact patch the tire (lateral load) will travel in a direction not the same as the direction of travel of wheel input. As counter-intuitive as it seems, you actually WANT to deform the contact patch. Grip will INCREASE as you deviate from a delta of 0 degrees. However, there is a limit for each tire. Could be as little as a couple degrees up to as much as 6, 7, or more depending on the type of tire (i.e., slick vs. DOT-R vs. street). Your goal is to take that slip angle to the limit and NOT cross over. This premise is the very reason why weight transfer is the enemy. The more weight transfer, the more lateral load you generate and thus quickly exceed the slip angle. Once you get a good feel for what the slip angle is for your specific car and setup you can take the car right up to it and then modulate throttle, brake, steering angle, to dance on that line.

**rest of reply edited for discussion over beer :)**

[bman]

Slip angle is probably easier to explain over a beer :)


I hope so.... :)

Thanks! I am with you.

I have been working a lot on feeling the chassis. Trying to be more aware of weight transfer and balance while braking, coming off brake and applying throttle. But everything with me is feel.....

[FTS]

Ummm, sorry, but... how is VIR T1 a decreasing radius, I always thought it is increasing radius actually :o

[Dell]

Good catch. I was typing and thinking just the opposite in my explanation. T1 is actually increasing radius. Bonus points for Fatih! Another reason it is better explained over a beer :)

What I tried to say and what I typed are two different things. Post edited and tabled for discussion over beer :)

[FTS]

Bonus points for Fatih! Another reason it is better explained over a beer :)
Love the idea, but over beer that critical turn might actually become a straight :D