Keep Or Sell? 3RS/Spyder vs Cup

[Trackrat]

So, the inevitable slippery slope question has come forefront:

Dump the affectionately monikered "Piece of Crap" (3RS) and probably Spyder too and buy a Cup?

DE and TT track fun only for me. No real interest in racing. I don't think. The Cup would be a later model with sequential tranny.

1. Is it essentially a given that I must return both modded cars to stock in order to not take a complete and total financial bath upon selling? Or does a market exist for professionally and intelligently modded cars?

2. In a previous thread I proposed and supported a case for tracking a well-modded GT car for fun. Is there a remotely rational (I know, I know...) case to be made for DE and TT'ing a Cup for fun?

I don't have to sell either or both, but it seems pretty silly to let the collection of garage jewels grow even bigger by adding a Cup and keeping everything else.

The 3RS and Spyder are set up as any super-enthusiast would want and it pains me to even consider this :-(( but here it is...I know some of you have been here and can offer some feedback.

[Izzone]

Let me know when the part sale begins.....

My opinion.....

If you just De why a Cup? You will be much faster than everyone always looking for point bys

I like DE with my friends with teh same car

[Festina Lente]

A Cup Car is like sex..once you start, you can never stop!

Watch this space for more details on the Porsche Cup Car Experience...absolutely brilliant, and then some!

Trackrat is just ahead of the curve... a man with a plan.

[mooty]

i dont know. sex and women aren't very interesting to me.

cup... once you drive it, you will never drive your RS on track again. even with my stripper gt3, i find my 3.8RS heavy and lacking. now if you try a late model sequential cup..... you WILL sell your RS. we can bet on it.

[PJS]

If you don't have to then don't

What's one more? :-)

[Glock Guru]

A cup car is a little over kill for DE. If you have no intrest in wheel to wheel, then what's the point. For me, I like the thrill of driving a street car to the limit, finding the limit, then making changes to the car (and me) to exceed it. Plus I can always drive it down the street or across the state.

-Troy

[TRAKCAR]

Just add the CUP car first.
You can always sell the others.

The blue one makes the most sense to sell with the 4.0 on the way, but with the time, money and memories invested I'd never sell it. The 4.0 won't show up until Sept?
The Spyder maybe if you don't value the dop down ride once in a while..

If you do sell, you can first try to sell to fellow nutcase first as-is with all the stuff. I did so with last GT3 and I loved the thought of someone taking the car and continue to track it as intended. Maybe a few $$ less then parting out, but less hassle more satisfaction....

Cupcar, remember that you must trailer and have mechanic with you for CUP. Maybe you can just start them and drive, but I think there might be more to driving a CUP car.
You might go fast, but not like the rough harsh high maint ride after the thrill wears off..
You might love it enough to dump all else and start your own race team, or just use the CUP with full arrive and drive service and just show up with helmet at the races ;-)

Either way there will be a trusty 4.0 and GT2RS waiting to drive you to the circuit.

[Trackrat]

Let me know when the part sale begins.....

My opinion.....

If you just De why a Cup? You will be much faster than everyone always looking for point bys

I like DE with my friends with teh same car

Lol..I will :p

See, I feel the same way right now? All my track pals with exception of one (Mike!) have street cars and it is fun chasing each other on track.


Watch this space for more details on the Porsche Cup Car Experience...absolutely brilliant, and then some!

Trackrat is just ahead of the curve... a man with a plan.

Looking forward to the report(s)! My plans are sometimes a bit over the top, sometimes I need reining in ;)

cup... once you drive it, you will never drive your RS on track again. even with my stripper gt3, i find my 3.8RS heavy and lacking. now if you try a late model sequential cup..... you WILL sell your RS. we can bet on it.

Yeah, you and Festina...troublemakers the both of you. :p

If you don't have to then don't

What's one more? :-)

License, registration, insurance, upkeep...lol. But I do love to drive all of them :-((

A cup car is a little over kill for DE. If you have no intrest in wheel to wheel, then what's the point. For me, I like the thrill of driving a street car to the limit, finding the limit, then making changes to the (and me) to exceed it. Plus I can always drive it down the street or across the state.

-Troy

That has always been my thought too. But you need one now to keep up with Chuck eh? :whistle: :-)))


The blue one makes the most sense to sell with the 4.0 on the way, but with the time, money and memories invested I'd never sell it. The 4.0 won't show up until Sept?
The Spyder maybe if you don't value the dop down ride once in a while..

Cupcar, remember that you must trailer and have mechanic with you for CUP. Maybe you can just start them and drive, but I think there might be more to driving a CUP car.
You might go fast, but not like the rough harsh high maint ride after the thrill wears off..
You might love it enough to dump all else and start your own race team, or just use the CUP with full arrive and drive service and just show up with helmet at the races ;-)

Yes, it would be very hard for me to part with the blue car, a labor of love for sure. 4.0 arriving mid/late-Aug.

That is my other concern- I arrive, unload car and drive in current situation. The blue car require minimal upkeep/prep. Nut and bolt it, check pads, that's it.

I have heard, but don't know the facts, that a Cup is going to require much more time dedicated to maintenance and consumables. I was talking to Fatih last night and told him my concern was that it would be like a (big) boat- your two very best days are the day you buy it and the day you sell it :D

Arrive and drive or even going to Barber 2-3 times a year might be the better financial proposition to do some occasional Cup driving for fun?

So I do appreciate everyone making comments as it helps me to clarify my thought process. It is a high-class problem for sure and I/we are very fortunate to have these kinds of things to worry about :-8

[FTS]

I think you and Mooty need to get togther and buy one new and share up-keep costs and do endurance races :)

[TRAKCAR]

Fatih, you're evil.. :-)(

These guys are already down the slippery slope and you are egging them on? :ROFL!:

[TRAKCAR]

It is a high-class problem for sure and I/we are very fortunate to have these kinds of things to worry about :-8


Or as I like to say: "Let's make story's while we can, there are a lot of people out there who's life sucks a lot worse then ours'"

[FTS]

Fatih, you're evil.. :-)(

These guys are already down the slippery slope and you are egging them on? :ROFL!:

I am advocating. :ballkicked:

[TRAKCAR]

Carry on then :pals:

[jenk12m]

Wow, cup car, 4.0. Some people are just wondering how to pay the rent every month. I live vicariously through you guys. :). Get the cup car and keep everything

[CWS]

Take the blue pill, not the red pill....

[mooty]

some disagrees with me. but i am certain that cup car CANNOT be DE'd.
i am at BW right now.
in my stripper. i ran the race group and red, the fastest group of PCA here.
the stripper isn't that fast, i have traffic every 3 turns. i am on someone's bumper. one instance, i moved fast, else i would be in his cabin down the front straight. after one session, i only ran the race group. with cup, you will be on brake a lot than on throttle due to traffic.

[tcsracing1]

i love a good CUP as much as the next guy but.......

for the sake of a few D.E/track days whatever; having to trailer the car, store the car, wrench the car and crew the car on occasion will take its toll on you and become more work then play.
If you also mess up the sequential box it is 25k.

This is why porsche make the "clubsport" RS in europe. For those looking to have a decent track car that can also be easy to own/street legal. It is the best of both worlds.

Since you already have a "clubsport" RS, you can decide how much further you wish to push the envelope by further stripping the car if you really want to go faster. (light weight doors, interior etc.)
With a stripper .2RS you can run with 996 CUPs until the tires fall off.... the 3.8RS will go down in the history books as one of the best 6 speed p-car street strippers of all time. You will see a lot of these RS models at tracks in 20 years. Fully stripped and on trailers.

in 2013, when the 991 GT3 takes the flag as the faster/better Porsche you can then either completely strip the RS and run PCA stock L class as a racer etc., or sell it because you will be bored of D.E in the car by then and will want to upgrade to 991 GT3 if it indeed is really all that and a bag of chips. :)

Now, that being said, by the time 2013 rolls around you may actually want to sell the RS track trainer and buy a 991 CUP to taste a little racing. Keep the spyder as a collector/toy porsche, as all CUP racers should have at least one old street Porsche to hold in the garage to remember their roots.. :)

[CWS]

Lol..I will :p

See, I feel the same way right now? All my track pals with exception of one (Mike!) have street cars and it is fun chasing each other on track.

Yes, it would be very hard for me to part with the blue car, a labor of love for sure. 4.0 arriving mid/late-Aug.

That is my other concern- I arrive, unload car and drive in current situation. The blue car require minimal upkeep/prep. Nut and bolt it, check pads, that's it.

I have heard, but don't know the facts, that a Cup is going to require much more time dedicated to maintenance and consumables. I was talking to Fatih last night and told him my concern was that it would be like a (big) boat- your two very best days are the day you buy it and the day you sell it :D

Arrive and drive or even going to Barber 2-3 times a year might be the better financial proposition to do some occasional Cup driving for fun?

So I do appreciate everyone making comments as it helps me to clarify my thought process. It is a high-class problem for sure and I/we are very fortunate to have these kinds of things to worry about :-8

Okay, let me try to give you a serious response.

1. I would always, always, always keep a 3 RS for lots of reasons, not least of which because it's a special car. Beyond that, there will likely be times when you may not want the hassle of transporting/supporting the Cup or events were you don't feel like bringing a Stinger missile to mix it up with the bare-knuckle brawlers.

So the question on the RS comes down to whether you plan to mod the 4.0 RS (assuming this still has a slot in your warehouse) or bubble-wrap it. If you plan to track and mod then swap all the parts from the 3 RS, return the 3 to stock and sell. Otherwise keep the 3 as your street-legal track toy.

2. Buying a Cup purely for PCA DE events is definitely overkill. Having just spent two days at DE event at The Glen driving and watching Cup cars mix it up with street cars, I can tell you that it's not uncommon to see mid-pack drivers in older Cup cars climbing all over even heavily modded street cars. As an example, an experienced black run group driver I attended event with was running modded Turbo with JRZs/stiffer springs, Hoosiers, etc. He said the Cups were coming up on him like a freight train. He'd have a clear mirror one second then a few seconds later it'd be filled with Cups - didn't matter 996 or 997 Cup. That was on a big wide-open track. Can't imagine a smaller track.

With those caveats aside I'll say that there's no comparison between driving a Cup and a modded street car (short of a full stripper but then what's the point) on the track. Given your trajectory it's inevitable that you'll eventually get into a Cup. Just recognize that it shouldn't be your only track-day tool.

To use an east coast example, it's unlikely you'd want to do a Lime Rock PCA DE where the track is small and the run groups large, but taking it to an limited-participant, open-track Murry event where coaching is part of the equation would be a no-brainer.

3. The fragility of the sequential box is overblown IMHO. The few weak links, such as 3rd gear issues, are easily sorted, and now with everyone running auto-blippers the boxes last just fine as long as you don't do something stupid. Consumables are more about the driver than the car. If you're constantly on the edge you'll use more; not so much, less. Doesn't matter the car.

You seem set on a 997 Cup so I'll save the 996 vs 997 analysis. Just remember that the absolute speed differences between the two are small enough that a better driver in a 996 Cup will be faster than a less skilled driver in a 997 Cup. I'd caution against making too big a jump at once. Jumping into a much faster car without transitioning through intermediate cars is one of the worst mistakes you can make in terms of driver development.

[Trackrat]

Man, this is seriously good stuff. Nothing like the voices of experience :pals: Thanks to everyone for the contribution!

some disagrees with me. but i am certain that cup car CANNOT be DE'd. i am at BW right now. in my stripper. i ran the race group and red, the fastest group of PCA here. the stripper isn't that fast, i have traffic every 3 turns. i am on someone's bumper. one instance, i moved fast, else i would be in his cabin down the front straight. after one session, i only ran the race group. with cup, you will be on brake a lot than on throttle due to traffic.

No surprise, you are a fast guy in a fast car ;) I suppose BW would be considered a tight track and technical so would be big differences in speed between those who know the track and those who don't.



This is why porsche make the "clubsport" RS in europe. For those looking to have a decent track car that can also be easy to own/street legal. It is the best of both worlds.

The 3.8RS will go down in the history books as one of the best 6 speed p-car street strippers of all time. You will see a lot of these RS models at tracks in 20 years. Fully stripped and on trailers.

Now, that being said, by the time 2013 rolls around you may actually want to sell the RS track trainer and buy a 991 CUP to taste a little racing. Keep the spyder as a collector/toy porsche, as all CUP racers should have at least one old street Porsche to hold in the garage to remember their roots.. :)

You have been there and done that (x2 lol) and what you say makes perfect sense and I cannot argue with the logic. In fact I agree with all of it :-8

Okay, let me try to give you a serious response.

1. I would always, always, always keep a 3 RS for lots of reasons, not least of which because it's a special car. Beyond that, there will likely be times when you may not want the hassle of transporting/supporting the Cup or events were you don't feel like bringing a Stinger missile to mix it up with the bare-knuckle brawlers.

So the question on the RS comes down to whether you plan to mod the 4.0 RS (assuming this still has a slot in your warehouse) or bubble-wrap it. If you plan to track and mod then swap all the parts from the 3 RS, return the 3 to stock and sell. Otherwise keep the 3 as your street-legal track toy.

2. Buying a Cup purely for PCA DE events is definitely overkill.

With those caveats aside I'll say that there's no comparison between driving a Cup and a modded street car (short of a full stripper but then what's the point) on the track. Given your trajectory it's inevitable that you'll eventually get into a Cup. Just recognize that it shouldn't be your only track-day tool.

3. The fragility of the sequential box is overblown IMHO. Consumables are more about the driver than the car. If you're constantly on the edge you'll use more; not so much, less. Doesn't matter the car.

You seem set on a 997 Cup so I'll save the 996 vs 997 analysis. Just remember that the absolute speed differences between the two are small enough that a better driver in a 996 Cup will be faster than a less skilled driver in a 997 Cup. I'd caution against making too big a jump at once. Jumping into a much faster car without transitioning through intermediate cars is one of the worst mistakes you can make in terms of driver development.

Again, a strong, compelling case put forward by a man who is a similar situation. Your comments are spot-on and perfectly sensible.

This thread is already priceless and should be stickied for all the other tortured souls who will be coming here after me and asking the same questions.

I can see it coming already- a DE run group for race prep cars (Cups) only. HOD is already doing that out here at some events.

Thanks guys, awesome stuff!

[FTS]

This thread is already priceless and should be stickied for all the other tortured souls who will be coming here after me and asking the same questions.


You're an admin, if you feel it is right thing to do, do it :p

But I think the advice is quite true. For DE, open tracking or even time trials, not worth the hassle of owning a Cup car. It will require a crew, many other things to worry about that you are not even aware of right now, and at the end, you'll be, ... let's say, 10-15 secs faster a lap; so what?

I think the best part of a Cup car is if you were going into racing and the option was whether to build a race car from ground up vs. a Cup out of factory, then it is a no brainer.

[jenk12m]

Some really good advice being handed out. With regards to if you wanna race, I've talked to some pro drivers and they all say it's best to go to a lower HP class for a year or so. For instance, miatas, 944's etc before jumping into a cup car. Just something to think about

[raysmd]

get the cup car and a membership at a track that has member only days. Those days are usually run with a few drivers. You won't have to worry about traffic then.

[ssort]

you need to go racing in a spec class (or other, depending on your budget and how much money you have to burn) and see what that is all about. nothing like wheel to wheel racing. DE days are like kindergarden. do it for a few years and have a blast. it puts everything else in perspective.

[FFaust]

Pete, don't worry too much about, or listen to the voice of reason, it does not belong in this discussion.

The cup is obviously on your mind, so you should get one, even if only to get it out of your system. Only then will you be able to answer the many questions raised (too fast, too high-maintenance, too raw, etc.). And only then will you know what to do with the existing fleet. Go and discover the answer for yourself :D

If you buy carefully, selling won't be too painful, if it even gets to that.

As far as market for well modded cars, there absolutely is one, and I am the perfect example: I got my 6 "because" it was fully modded, and I was/am absolutely thrilled about it. Who would not rather buy a car that's ready v. one that will need the mods eventually? The only problem is that such a market IS smaller; not everyone understands. Returning your cars to stock would be a crying shame.

- You can't say you have no interest in racing until you get closer
- What does Mikymu think about the experience so far?
- I am not convinced that the maintenance costs on a cup would be that much more than on our cars if not raced. And if they are marginally higher, well so be it. I'm pretty sure that it's not about cost for you at this point...
- I would get a cup just for the thrill. Matter of fact, I considered a 996 cup that would have been cheaper than my GT3, but *I* wasn't ready logistics-wise (for me, it's still about the $$)
- Yes, a cup might be too fast for the run-of-the-mill DE, but as has been said elsewhere, there are options

Finally, if you can, you must. Cause if I could, I would... and I just might.

Lots of words, sorry.

[lightweight]

^ Great post. Straight to the heart of it. Another option Pete: one might devote some entrepreneurial ingenuity to borrowing, renting, or leasing one prior to purchase / ownership. That way a purchase decision is better informed :)

[Festina Lente]

^ Great post. Straight to the heart of it. Another option Pete: one might devote some entrepreneurial ingenuity to borrowing, renting, or leasing one prior to purchase / ownership. That way a purchase decision is better informed :)

^
Exactly the pertinent point to the GT3 Cup experience and you get to compare it to the GT3 and Turbo under the same conditions which helps calibrate the scale, relative appeal and fit. For me, it made the GT3 easier to drive (and push) but then again I stay well within the envelope and, for sure, there is no driving contract in tomorrow's mail for me.

I know if I could handle the speed (and expense!) that I would certainly take a Cup Car over any modded car.....period! It is cheaper in the long run; and has the benefit of professional development and testing versus the good idea, trial and error process which poses as "superior" engineering in many instances.

When extremely high speeds are involved, the predictable, tried and true evolution equates into peace of mind and makes for exciting moments.. instead of excitable moments.

But if you like to tinker...that brings it own (though different) rewards which are not a substitute for a comprehensive package.

YMMV

[mooty]

get the cup car and a membership at a track that has member only days. Those days are usually run with a few drivers. You won't have to worry about traffic then.

then you have no one to chase or be chased.
i no longer do private track day for that reason.
i want the right traffic. for example, my car is 100hp down and 100 # more than 2000 996RSR's. i can keep them in sight for about 3 laps. those are the three laps i am going 110% and scary myself shitless.
however, i know pete well.
i think he should just buy it and i will use it to scare other DE'ers.

i like that idea.
let's go for it.
i can get a dually and 44' gooseneck so i can bring pete's car with me everywhere ;-)

[FFaust]

Also, IMHO, an off in a street car destroys a lot of the resale value, not so much in a cup...

[Trackrat]

you need to go racing in a spec class (or other, depending on your budget and how much money you have to burn) and see what that is all about. nothing like wheel to wheel racing. DE days are like kindergarden. do it for a few years and have a blast. it puts everything else in perspective.

Good idea, makes sense!

Pete, don't worry too much about, or listen to the voice of reason, it does not belong in this discussion.

Finally, if you can, you must. Cause if I could, I would... and I just might.

Lol...:-)( Bunch of co-dependents in here, I gotta spend some time away...:p

one might devote some entrepreneurial ingenuity to borrowing, renting, or leasing one prior to purchase / ownership. That way a purchase decision is better informed :)

That is mighty good advice methinks :-DD

^
Exactly the pertinent point to the GT3 Cup experience and you get to compare it to the GT3 and Turbo under the same conditions which helps calibrate the scale, relative appeal and fit. For me, it made the GT3 easier to drive (and push) but then again I stay well within the envelope and, for sure, there is no driving contract in tomorrow's mail for me.

But if you like to tinker...that brings it own (though different) rewards which are not a substitute for a comprehensive package.

YMMV

PSDS would be a great way to get a proper introduction to Cup. I am thinking seriously about attending.

i know pete well.
i think he should just buy it and i will use it to scare other DE'ers.

i like that idea.
let's go for it.
i can get a dually and 44' gooseneck so i can bring pete's car with me everywhere ;-)

Hmmm, I see your confusion technique there. I was agreeing with you there for a minute ;)

Also, IMHO, an off in a street car destroys a lot of the resale value, not so much in a cup...

Another good point.

[amaist]

I think if you get a Cup car you will want to race it. Maybe not 8 races per year. I'd be happy with 2 races and the rest spend developing/DE/lapping. I don't know your situation in terms of other car. Over here a Cup would fit right in in the local club that is not expensive to join (around 6k per year for 26 weekend days or so) Plenty of track time and mostly among cars of similar or faster speed. There are a couple 944s in the race car group but you lap them every 5 or 6 laps. All other times you can dice it with other Cups, chase a race prepared Viper or get out of the way of the Stohrs every 6 laps.

On the other hand there is plenty of opportunity to have fun in a "regular" GT3 or RS over here. The same club has plenty of fast cars in the street group and local PCA chapter is GT3 central with lots of good drivers. The black run group (right below red) is the fastest group on average I have driven with anywhere.

So I would judge this on who you can run with and if you can race. You will want to race it even if it's once a year.

I don't think you need full track support for DE/lapping stuff. For the race it's essential. Yes you can survive without it but you are doing it for fun, right?

[hughp3]

Appropriate thread and glad I found the forum, anyway I was right here where TrackRat is 5 weeks ago.

Sold GT3.1 for 2004 Cup. Did it for safety mainly but also was not gonna make the mistake, again, of taking a perfectly good street car, waste all kinds of money trying to make it half as fast as a true race car. Then spend money putting it back to stock hopefully without shunting it somewhere along the way. I have also found that the rush of track driving just cannot be found safely with street driving anymore, at least not around here (Atlanta). I bought this car with the expectations that I can do it all myself (I do have my own backyard shop with lift which does help a tad). I must be able to load, unload, run and maintain the car within reason, alone. Frankly its not a big deal. I just did it at Roebling and it was no different, albeit louder, than the street car.

Now the Goodie: Let me say and maybe say again. I cannot go back to a street car. The experience is soooo addictive, so visceral. I get it now. You need to experience this too. Yea I know its just DE's but really its much more than that. A clear track and a Cup Car is what makes me not sleep at night. The car is good, really good. About 7 seconds PL good first weekend out. So take the plunge, sell your street fighters, get a big turbo diesel and tow that baby to your next fix. Just put the sold car money away for tires, 1 set per weekend. Yea those new Michelin's were gone, time to try Yokohama's.

Hughp3 -
AMP member, lets get her done.

[FTS]

Nice first post Hugh :) Welcome!

[Festina Lente]

Appropriate thread and glad I found the forum, anyway I was right here where TrackRat is 5 weeks ago.

Sold GT3.1 for 2004 Cup. Did it for safety mainly but also was not gonna make the mistake, again, of taking a perfectly good street car, waste all kinds of money trying to make it half as fast as a true race car. Then spend money putting it back to stock hopefully without shunting it somewhere along the way. I have also found that the rush of track driving just cannot be found safely with street driving anymore, at least not around here (Atlanta). I bought this car with the expectations that I can do it all myself (I do have my own backyard shop with lift which does help a tad). I must be able to load, unload, run and maintain the car within reason, alone. Frankly its not a big deal. I just did it at Roebling and it was no different, albeit louder, than the street car.

Now the Goodie: Let me say and maybe say again. I cannot go back to a street car. The experience is soooo addictive, so visceral. I get it now. You need to experience this too. Yea I know its just DE's but really its much more than that. A clear track and a Cup Car is what makes me not sleep at night. The car is good, really good. About 7 seconds PL good first weekend out. So take the plunge, sell your street fighters, get a big turbo diesel and tow that baby to your next fix. Just put the sold car money away for tires, 1 set per weekend. Yea those new Michelin's were gone, time to try Yokohama's.

Hughp3 -
AMP member, lets get her done.

Somebody gets it!

[CWS]

Appropriate thread and glad I found the forum, anyway I was right here where TrackRat is 5 weeks ago.

Sold GT3.1 for 2004 Cup. Did it for safety mainly but also was not gonna make the mistake, again, of taking a perfectly good street car, waste all kinds of money trying to make it half as fast as a true race car. Then spend money putting it back to stock hopefully without shunting it somewhere along the way. I have also found that the rush of track driving just cannot be found safely with street driving anymore, at least not around here (Atlanta). I bought this car with the expectations that I can do it all myself (I do have my own backyard shop with lift which does help a tad). I must be able to load, unload, run and maintain the car within reason, alone. Frankly its not a big deal. I just did it at Roebling and it was no different, albeit louder, than the street car.

Now the Goodie: Let me say and maybe say again. I cannot go back to a street car. The experience is soooo addictive, so visceral. I get it now. You need to experience this too. Yea I know its just DE's but really its much more than that. A clear track and a Cup Car is what makes me not sleep at night. The car is good, really good. About 7 seconds PL good first weekend out. Just put the sold car money away for tires, 1 set per weekend. Yea those new Michelin's were gone, time to try Yokohama's.

Hughp3 -
AMP member, lets get her done.

This!

[FFaust]

:-DD

Anything else is just a compromise.

[pranqster]

I have done this.

I sold my 6GT3 and RUF RGT to buy my 6 cup. I was not really in the market to buy the cup, but it came to me at a time that I was going to have to do major suspension changes to my 6GT3 if I were to keep it as a track car. The 6 cup is around 2600 pounds and has an RSR sprint engine in it, and it came to me at a price I thought was reasonable based upon condition, the RSR Sprint engine, carbon fiber, wankel axles, etc.

I am lucky, in that I have a membership at Spring Mountain and can go and drive on member days, sometimes on Thursdays or Fridays and can exploit the cup to my driving level. Even though I had quite a bit of track time in my 6 GT3, I am still accumulating Cup seat time and need to get better. I like the manual transmission and do not see myself going to a sequential any time in the future. We now have a group at Spring Mountain that is gravitating back to cups (and RSRS) so soon I expect I will have 5 or 6 people to play with on the track, each time I go.

I kept my 997.1 RS, but never really came to terms with it on the track because once you have a cup, you never want to drive a street car on the track again. I did not like the suspension on the 997.1 RS. I was not driving it that much on the street so I sold it.

I came full circle and bought my 6 GT3 back in April. It happened to come up for sale and I gladly repurchased it. I had both cars at Spring Mountain in May. My 6 cup car was 11 seconds a lap faster than the 6 GT3 on a 3.1 mile track. Same driver, Same day. I keep my cup car at Premier Sports Car Service in Las Vegas, and repurchased the GT3 to use around some of the smaller local tracks in NM and Colorado. I kept reminding myself that day at the track that the 6 GT3 was now my momentum car. And what a momentum car it is. So now I will once again do my own DE's in the GT3, and fly out to Vegas to drive the Cup at Spring Mountain.

It is absolutely true that each time I drive the cup car that I try to maximize my track time because I am paying for support. The only DE's I have taken the car to is Miller Motorsports. I would like to go to Road America with it, and to Daytona some time. Also a few tracks out West under the right circumstances. Is it a PIA to have support? Sometimes. Is it a damn nice luxury to have support? Yes it is. Is it nice to have someone look over the car each time it comes in? Yes it is. Would I buy the cup again? Yes I would.

So far, I am still accumulating seat time and have not raced my Cup. I am reluctant to do so because of the costs fixing items on any resultant offs, spins, or other acts of getting pushed off, doing the pushing off, etc. I currently do not have the disposable income to fix a 20k or 30k off.

[mooty]

pranq, right on.
once driven a race car, no street car, however good/fast they are, just not the same.
though stripper is not a cup, but those who really know my stripper knows it's a cup. that's all i can disclose. like you i never liked my .1RS or .1gt3. i can't say why. the 6 was more fun to drive. .2RS was as good as 6gt3, faster but no better. i still like dancing with the 6 more. but i would like a cup next. i have to find a way to hide all these things from the mrs. btw, if you go off in a street car, a big off, it will be 10-20k easy. my little "smoke/fire" incident at regular shop rate would be close to 7,000. and i didn't go off anywhere.

come out to thunderhill with PCA GGR or NCRC july 9-10 and july 16-17
lots of GT3's will be there.

[pranqster]

Mooty

If I go off because it is my fault I can live with that. That is the risk I take when I go out on the track. What I would not like, is if I get pushed off from behind by someone that has more money than brains.

I definately want to come and run in Cali with all the .org guys and rennlist guys. I just have to figure out when. Maybe I will just have to come out for a road trip soon in the GT3. There are a lot of tracks in Cali I have not been to.

[24Chromium]

Let's see... Cup v. Spyder, or 3 RS (3.8), or 2 RS, or 3 RS (4.0)?

My answer? None of the above. If you're not going to race (and I can't for the life of me figure out why the hell not!), and you're going to continue in DE, then for me the answer is crystal clear.

GET A SPEC MIATA!!!!

You wanna prove your mettle as a driver? Pass me in my high-horsepower, latest, greatest supercar in your dinky little Miata! That will get my attention!!!

PS: Teach your wify how to drive and give her the Spyder.

[Trackrat]

Let's see... Cup v. Spyder, or 3 RS (3.8), or 2 RS, or 3 RS (4.0)?

My answer? None of the above. If you're not going to race (and I can't for the life of me figure out why the hell not!), and you're going to continue in DE, then for me the answer is crystal clear.

GET A SPEC MIATA!!!!

You wanna prove your mettle as a driver? Pass me in my high-horsepower, latest, greatest supercar in your dinky little Miata! That will get my attention!!!

PS: Teach your wify how to drive and give her the Spyder.

The woman driving the Miata last weekend was driving it very well, but there is no substitute for hp :-)( But I hear you and understand your point. Wify is scared enough just street driving, no way in a billion years would she venture out on track unless it was closed to other cars! lol

[mooty]

The woman driving the Miata last weekend was driving it very well, but there is no substitute for hp :-)( But I hear you and understand your point. Wify is scared enough just street driving, no way in a billion years would she venture out on track unless it was closed to other cars! lol
if that woman is chinese and driving a pale yellow miata, her name is margaret. she was my coach.. well still is. she's the only driver that impressed JVoB when he coached a bunch of drivers...

JVoB was chatting with a bunch of us....
then he goes, this woman took me in miata without braking into T1 at TH. i thought we are going to die. she turned in and kept on going..... smooth as butta. if you ever see her again, get a ride. she double clutches up and down each gear. yes, you dont need it, but she does it so fast and so smooth it's really amazing.

[mooty]

Let's see... Cup v. Spyder, or 3 RS (3.8), or 2 RS, or 3 RS (4.0)?

My answer? None of the above. If you're not going to race (and I can't for the life of me figure out why the hell not!), and you're going to continue in DE, then for me the answer is crystal clear.

GET A SPEC MIATA!!!!

You wanna prove your mettle as a driver? Pass me in my high-horsepower, latest, greatest supercar in your dinky little Miata! That will get my attention!!!

PS: Teach your wify how to drive and give her the Spyder.

i htink justin hall did 2:08 or was it 2:06 in a spec miata OVER THE TOP at TH years ago, before the repaving (which is a much slower track)

[FTS]

For driving on track to be fun, it has to be difficult to do so for me, I have to be challenged. A Miata is only challenging in terms of maximizing landscape use to keep the momentum; otherwise there is no challenge IMHO in how you use the throttle or brakes in that car. I felt that way in the Cayman as well, and that was one of the reasons I changed it out.

[24Chromium]

Pete, I didn't mean to imply that the Spyder was for the wify to track. I simply meant for her to have it as a daily driver. It's a chick car! LOL

[Trackrat]

Pete, I didn't mean to imply that the Spyder was for the wify to track. I simply meant for her to have it as a daily driver. It's a chick car! LOL

Lol! :D

[Skypalace]

Re Cup Cars, I'm lucky enough to have both 996 and 997 Cups. I'd very very strongly recommend a 996 for someone looking to do even occasional DE's. Even though it's not a sequential, it's a great gearbox, I've literally never missed a shift in 7 years. The 997 Cup is noticably stiffer and tighter and more direct, and is a lot more work, both physically and mentally. And the braking without ABS is much much trickier on the 997 Cup. I knew it would be a difficult transition for me (I've always been a late braker, and done a lot of passing under braking), and as I mentioned in other posts, I've had to greatly adjust my braking, for example not being able to trail brake nearly as aggressively, in a non-ABS car. And ABS is of course a godsend in wet or damp conditions. A 997 can still be driven well in the wet (as I mentioned in another post I lapped the field in my last wet PCA race) but it's a heck of a lot more nervewracking under braking than the 996 was, when I could go late and let the ABS catch me if I was a little too aggressive.

The 996 Cup is still frigging quick and tight compared to any street car, but still has enough rubber in the suspension bushings that it's less twitchy than the 997. I rebuilt my 996 Cup gearbox once in 7 years (when I had the engine out getting rebuilt at PMNA) and it was actually fine, replaced one gear that was a little worn (2nd) and replaced the synchros. The 997 gearbox, even with the blipper, takes more of a beating, and I doubt too many people would get it to last 7 years with only a single rebuild. I know of multiple 997 drivers that have gone through multiple tranny rebuilds in a single year.

Re crew, I've done the vast majority of my races with a single crew person, as I normally register multiple groups, but 98% of the work is adding fuel, changing tires, checking tire pressures, and being on the wall with the radio, keeping me informed witch what's happening with my competitors etc. I've run many race weekends myself, with no crew at all, and if I don't have sessions too close together, it's fine. The only thing I miss is someone to check tire pressures at the wall, and letting me know gaps to competitors etc. during the race.

There are many things you likely won't need to worry about at a DE versus race that'll mean less reason to need crew help. You won't need to worry about which set of tires you'll practice on, qualify on, and race on, to be as competitive as necessary but without spending too much $$ on the tires. You won't need to have the car up on airjacks, with wet and dry tires both stacked, and wrenches sitting ready to go for swaybar adjustments, waiting to decide if you're going to go out on a wet or dry setup during changing weather. You don't need someone to call the race start, and you can make tire pressure adjustments between sessions, rather than in the hotpit lane. You don't need a crewman on the radio to let you know what's going on, to keep you calm if you're getting a little hyper or whatever. In a DE you just come in and relax if things are getting a little tense, or you've had an off, etc.

Yes you'll need a trailer since the car isn't strete legal, but that gives you the opportunity to carry some things that'll make a single person DE much easier. You can have both wet and dry tires. You can have a bottle of nitrogen for the airjacks, and an air impact wrench. You can carry a toolbox with everything you need to do brake pads and bleed brakes etc. if needed. The air-jacks and center-locks make changing tires so quick, I've literally left pregrid, driven back to my trailer, and single-handedly changed tires (ie. to rains if it starts to rain while on pre-grid), and gotten back in time to keep my grid spot.

Whether you have crew or not, you will want a good race shop to to do the work on your Cup car.

Every few weekends the pads will need to be replaced, it's easy to do yourself, it's even easier on the 996 than the 997 as you don't need to unbolt the rear calipers, all you need is a set of slipjoint pliers. Keep an eye on the rotors, esp. cracking from the outer holes to the edge, and have the shop replace the rotors when it's time (usually less than once a year in my 996 Cup).


Check your oil and brake pads and rotors every event, and every few events have fluids replaced, brake fluid flushed (I always fully replace, if they're going to bleed they're doing 90% of the work to fully flush). I also have a full nut and bolt done whenever in the shop, and alignment and corner balances redone, thinks just seem to move around a hair, even when none of the paint marks on the bolts have moved.

All that said, once you have a Cup Car (or any fully prepped race car) on track, it's very hard to go back. I've only done one DE since driving a full race car on the track, as any streetable car will be significantly softer and less precise. I thought my Dinan E34 M5 was a pretty good track car, I did many many DE's and instructed with multiple car clubs. Flat, fast, had stroked 3.9 litre straight 6 (gobs of torque, 411hp), camber plates, springs, shocks, sway bars, and I had a second set of wheels with R compound rubber.

I brought it to a BMW Club DE after racing a fully race-prepped RS America for a year. The BMW was only 3 seconds a lap slower, and significantly faster at the end of the straights and tons more torque out of the corners, but it felt like a Buick in the corners and under braking and esp. in lateral transitions. It felt so sloppy (after many years of being the quickest car at the DE) that I've never done a DE since.

I also found it incredibly frustrating to go back to waiting for point-by's etc. Your best lap at a DE (full lap without being slowed down by other traffic, all by yourself, able to do a fully clean lap) is the most boring lap in a race. I really love the stress and pressure of being competitive, and the psychological aspects of competition, trying to set up teh car in front for a pass, trying to induce them to make a mistake if you're equal enough that pure speed or braking won't get it done, keeping it together when a driver behind you is trying to do the same thing to you, etc.

I love racing a Cup, great cars, and they're spec cars - with a sealed PMNA rebuild and ECU, it's 90% driver and 10% setup that gets you the results. When I win a race, I know that I won the race, not my car or putting more go-fast bits on it. Esp. in a carefully inspected series like Pirelli Drivers Cup, all you have to play with is sway bars, wing, and tire pressures. Camber and ride height is restricted, so most everyone runs very similar setups there, and it's a spec tire.

And yes, a well-driven 996 Cup will easily take an average 997 Cup, esp. an earlier one. I finished many races in my 996 Cup ahead of 2/3 to 3/4 of the 997 field, even in competitive series like PDC. The 2010/2011 is a fair bit quicker, and at least in Pirelli Driver's Cup the average driver quality in the 2010-2011 is higher, so it's less common for the 996's to beat the 2010-2011 drivers. Of the five 2010-2011 Cups at my last race weekend (Portland Rose Cup), the top three of us had fast race laps in the first race within 23 thousandths of a second of each other. I had the fast race lap of the weekend (in the second Pirelli race), but was less than a tenth quicker than the next fastest.

Unfortunately the tricky braking I referred to above in the 997 Cup caught me out, and brake lockup caught me out in both Pirelli Drivers Cup races (front lockup and overshot turn 1 in first race, rear lockup and spun in turn 2 second race), so only finished 3rd overall in both. Too competitive a field to be able to make a mistake like that without paying the price :-)

[Canine64]

Re Cup Cars, I'm lucky enough to have both 996 and 997 Cups. I'd very very strongly recommend a 996 for someone looking to do even occasional DE's. Even though it's not a sequential, it's a great gearbox, I've literally never missed a shift in 7 years. The 997 Cup is noticably stiffer and tighter and more direct, and is a lot more work, both physically and mentally. And the braking without ABS is much much trickier on the 997 Cup. I knew it would be a difficult transition for me (I've always been a late braker, and done a lot of passing under braking), and as I mentioned in other posts, I've had to greatly adjust my braking, for example not being able to trail brake nearly as aggressively, in a non-ABS car. And ABS is of course a godsend in wet or damp conditions. A 997 can still be driven well in the wet (as I mentioned in another post I lapped the field in my last wet PCA race) but it's a heck of a lot more nervewracking under braking than the 996 was, when I could go late and let the ABS catch me if I was a little too aggressive.

The 996 Cup is still frigging quick and tight compared to any street car, but still has enough rubber in the suspension bushings that it's less twitchy than the 997. I rebuilt my 996 Cup gearbox once in 7 years (when I had the engine out getting rebuilt at PMNA) and it was actually fine, replaced one gear that was a little worn (2nd) and replaced the synchros. The 997 gearbox, even with the blipper, takes more of a beating, and I doubt too many people would get it to last 7 years with only a single rebuild. I know of multiple 997 drivers that have gone through multiple tranny rebuilds in a single year.

Re crew, I've done the vast majority of my races with a single crew person, as I normally register multiple groups, but 98% of the work is adding fuel, changing tires, checking tire pressures, and being on the wall with the radio, keeping me informed witch what's happening with my competitors etc. I've run many race weekends myself, with no crew at all, and if I don't have sessions too close together, it's fine. The only thing I miss is someone to check tire pressures at the wall, and letting me know gaps to competitors etc. during the race.

There are many things you likely won't need to worry about at a DE versus race that'll mean less reason to need crew help. You won't need to worry about which set of tires you'll practice on, qualify on, and race on, to be as competitive as necessary but without spending too much $$ on the tires. You won't need to have the car up on airjacks, with wet and dry tires both stacked, and wrenches sitting ready to go for swaybar adjustments, waiting to decide if you're going to go out on a wet or dry setup during changing weather. You don't need someone to call the race start, and you can make tire pressure adjustments between sessions, rather than in the hotpit lane. You don't need a crewman on the radio to let you know what's going on, to keep you calm if you're getting a little hyper or whatever. In a DE you just come in and relax if things are getting a little tense, or you've had an off, etc.

Yes you'll need a trailer since the car isn't strete legal, but that gives you the opportunity to carry some things that'll make a single person DE much easier. You can have both wet and dry tires. You can have a bottle of nitrogen for the airjacks, and an air impact wrench. You can carry a toolbox with everything you need to do brake pads and bleed brakes etc. if needed. The air-jacks and center-locks make changing tires so quick, I've literally left pregrid, driven back to my trailer, and single-handedly changed tires (ie. to rains if it starts to rain while on pre-grid), and gotten back in time to keep my grid spot.

Whether you have crew or not, you will want a good race shop to to do the work on your Cup car.

Every few weekends the pads will need to be replaced, it's easy to do yourself, it's even easier on the 996 than the 997 as you don't need to unbolt the rear calipers, all you need is a set of slipjoint pliers. Keep an eye on the rotors, esp. cracking from the outer holes to the edge, and have the shop replace the rotors when it's time (usually less than once a year in my 996 Cup).


Check your oil and brake pads and rotors every event, and every few events have fluids replaced, brake fluid flushed (I always fully replace, if they're going to bleed they're doing 90% of the work to fully flush). I also have a full nut and bolt done whenever in the shop, and alignment and corner balances redone, thinks just seem to move around a hair, even when none of the paint marks on the bolts have moved.

All that said, once you have a Cup Car (or any fully prepped race car) on track, it's very hard to go back. I've only done one DE since driving a full race car on the track, as any streetable car will be significantly softer and less precise. I thought my Dinan E34 M5 was a pretty good track car, I did many many DE's and instructed with multiple car clubs. Flat, fast, had stroked 3.9 litre straight 6 (gobs of torque, 411hp), camber plates, springs, shocks, sway bars, and I had a second set of wheels with R compound rubber.

I brought it to a BMW Club DE after racing a fully race-prepped RS America for a year. The BMW was only 3 seconds a lap slower, and significantly faster at the end of the straights and tons more torque out of the corners, but it felt like a Buick in the corners and under braking and esp. in lateral transitions. It felt so sloppy (after many years of being the quickest car at the DE) that I've never done a DE since.

I also found it incredibly frustrating to go back to waiting for point-by's etc. Your best lap at a DE (full lap without being slowed down by other traffic, all by yourself, able to do a fully clean lap) is the most boring lap in a race. I really love the stress and pressure of being competitive, and the psychological aspects of competition, trying to set up teh car in front for a pass, trying to induce them to make a mistake if you're equal enough that pure speed or braking won't get it done, keeping it together when a driver behind you is trying to do the same thing to you, etc.

I love racing a Cup, great cars, and they're spec cars - with a sealed PMNA rebuild and ECU, it's 90% driver and 10% setup that gets you the results. When I win a race, I know that I won the race, not my car or putting more go-fast bits on it. Esp. in a carefully inspected series like Pirelli Drivers Cup, all you have to play with is sway bars, wing, and tire pressures. Camber and ride height is restricted, so most everyone runs very similar setups there, and it's a spec tire.

And yes, a well-driven 996 Cup will easily take an average 997 Cup, esp. an earlier one. I finished many races in my 996 Cup ahead of 2/3 to 3/4 of the 997 field, even in competitive series like PDC. The 2010/2011 is a fair bit quicker, and at least in Pirelli Driver's Cup the average driver quality in the 2010-2011 is higher, so it's less common for the 996's to beat the 2010-2011 drivers. Of the five 2010-2011 Cups at my last race weekend (Portland Rose Cup), the top three of us had fast race laps in the first race within 23 thousandths of a second of each other. I had the fast race lap of the weekend (in the second Pirelli race), but was less than a tenth quicker than the next fastest.

Unfortunately the tricky braking I referred to above in the 997 Cup caught me out, and brake lockup caught me out in both Pirelli Drivers Cup races (front lockup and overshot turn 1 in first race, rear lockup and spun in turn 2 second race), so only finished 3rd overall in both. Too competitive a field to be able to make a mistake like that without paying the price :-)

One of the best posts I have ever read on Cup ownership. This post alone should be made a sticky!!! Anyone even remotely thinking about a Cup should commit this to memory.

There are tons of Cup myths out there, with the 2 most common being the need for trackside support and high maintenance costs, especially with respect to engine hours/rebuilds.

Trackside support is really only needed for a race weekend---I utilize it for Skypalaces same reasons, and just want to focus 100% on driving. I never get trackside support for test'n'tune days or DEs, as I can flip tires/change pads/adjust pressures easily on my own.

In terms of engine hours/rebuilds, I know of several strong cars in the 150+ hour range running very competitively, as well as one with 250+ hours that hasn't missed a beat. These are Club Race cars---not pro race where rebuilds are much more frequent. I have adjusted my shift light several hundred RPM lower than redline as well.

Right now the 996 Cup is probably one of the best bang for the buck race cars available. Daniel Jacobs "Hairy Dog Grrrage" services my car and Dan firmly believes that the 996 Cup is the best race car Porsche has ever built. If you have the means to buy a Cup, do it!!! You will not regret it!!!

[hughp3]

Great write up. Enjoyed reading this. HughP3

[Skypalace]

Thanks, sorry for the length, I get carried away sometimes :-)

Re engine hours, I had a factory Porsche Motorsports rebuild on my 996 Cup with ~125 hours on it, had 3% max leakdown. Didn't think I needed it, but I was getting nervous about potential damage if something let go. PMNA said they'd never seen a cleaner high-miles engine, and told me that whatever I was doing, keep doing it.

My tips for long happy life of a Cup engine - always fully warm it up before high load or revs (hard on lots of things to not have both oil film, and various metal parts at operating temp and thus appropriate dimensions (expansion/contraction of various metals differ, the car is designed to run at temp, not cold)). Cool it down at the end of a session. Change fluids regularly, and don't scrimshank on the fluids (I use full synthetic only for all fluids etc.).

And #1: Don't miss shifts. I've had zero overrevs on that motor, in 7 years. I missed an upshift in an RSR from 4th to 5th at Daytona once (luckily into neutral and not into 3rd where it could overrev) because of the banking/loading, and the team mechanic suggested turning my wrist on upshifts so that my thumb is down, and pushing outwards to keep outward pressure on the shift knob. It feels strange at first, but I've been doing it always since then, and it prevents missed upshifts (and I use it from 6th into 5th also to prevent an accidential downshift into 3rd).

For other downshifts, I'm slow and deliberate, and 100% sure I'm in the right gear before releasing the clutch. Since I'm braking on the downshifts anyways, there' no need to rush horribly. If you want engine braking, just do the shift earlier, but release the clutch when you'll be at the appropriate rpm in the lower gear(after your blip of course).

I'm also very careful on upshifts to ensure the right gear is selected, with modified hand and slight rightward pressure preventing any leftward motion, the worst case from 2nd to 3rd is that you catch 5th instead (hurts your time but not your gearbox). It's 3rd to 4th that you need to be very careful to not get 2nd, esp. on a banked track, but again using the modified hand motion, worst case is the occasional 3rd to 6th until you've got it fully sorted.

I've missed more shifts with the sequential in my 997 Cup in my first session (I found you really need to be forceful on the downshifts, or it occasionally pops back into the previous gear) than I ever did in the 996.

[Trackrat]

Truly awesome stuff Skypalace! Thanks so much for taking the time and making the effort to post your comments! Really great food for thought. Still undecided what to do in the next few months, but there will be a Cup in my garage sooner than later :pals:

[Skypalace]

I just reread this entire thread after seeing the weekly digest, and thought I'd comment on the thoughts re Spec Miata.

I haven't driven a Spec Miata, but I was offered a chance to drive a 944 in the Thunderhill 25. I thought I was a pretty decent driver, but had only competitively raced reasonably powered 911's of various types, so the 944 would be easy, having less brakes and power and traction, it would be an exercise in driving the right line and not making mistakes that slow down minimum corner or exit speed.

After a few laps, I think I've got it figured out and I'm on a decent pace. I ask the crew what my times are like. I can't remember the exact details (it was 8 or 9 years ago), but I was about 3 seconds off the fast lap. So I start working harder, having to really start to work to get it and keep it where I want to be. Now I must be on pace, right? Nope, still over a second slow! Time to man up. So I'm now really having to manhandle the car, keeping it right at the limit under braking, mid-corner, and on exit, of every single corner, for every lap, to finally get on the pace, and finally get the fast race lap in the car. What I expected to be a fairly easy session was anything but.

I learned a big lesson though - a slower car is NOT always easier to drive, I found it no less physically and mentally challenging than the 996 Cup, at least to be fully on a competitive pace. Gained a lot of respect for 944 Cup and Spec Miata drivers, and had a lot of fun. Did I have as much fun as in a Cup? Heck no, I'm not crazy :-)

[FTS]

I just reread this entire thread after seeing the weekly digest...
I am glad the digest are having an impact :)

I learned a big lesson though - a slower car is NOT always easier to drive, I found it no less physically and mentally challenging than the 996 Cup, at least to be fully on a competitive pace. Gained a lot of respect for 944 Cup and Spec Miata drivers, and had a lot of fun. Did I have as much fun as in a Cup? Heck no, I'm not crazy :-)
Interesting story. I always thought slower cars are easier to drive without much fun. The context is different of course, I can see how racing in spec series can be a lot of fun, slow or fast cars. But in DE environment, I find driving a slow car extremely frustrating. I am a competitive person, but only to a level. However, just driving around in my Cayman, before the GT3, was getting tiring and not much fun to the point that I was getting sour about DE'ing.

Nice input again Skypalace, thank you.

[GT THRE]

For your basic DE my GT-3 with some modifications seems to work for me. A Cup would probably be overkill. However, I have never driven in a Cup. To move beyond the basic DE, the Cup makes sense.

[Skypalace]

I am glad the digest are having an impact :)


Interesting story. I always thought slower cars are easier to drive without much fun. The context is different of course, I can see how racing in spec series can be a lot of fun, slow or fast cars. But in DE environment, I find driving a slow car extremely frustrating. I am a competitive person, but only to a level. However, just driving around in my Cayman, before the GT3, was getting tiring and not much fun to the point that I was getting sour about DE'ing.

Nice input again Skypalace, thank you.

You're welcome!

I haven't done DE in years, I did one only after racing, but having to wait behind cars in corners made me crazy, after being able to pass whenever I was able to.

But I found it more and more frustrating doing DE's as I got faster (both driving and cars), as I spent more and more time held up behind other cars.

The challenge I had in the 944 was in the level of skill and concentration required to do a great lap. With a 'slow' car at a DE, as long as you're in an appropriate run group (ie. based on driver skill rather than car potential), you'd likely be able to do many clean laps laps practicing your craft, whereas in a faster car, you're much less likely to get fully clean laps.

What was getting frustrating about the Cayman? Was it being slow, or was it that you'd already done many DEs with it, so weren't learning or improving much any more, and thus the challenge and interest was going away, which came back once you moved to a different vehicle?

Whichever car it's in, have you thought about doing time trials, rather than just DE's, so that you've got something competitive to aim for (ie. improving your lap time and comparing it to others)? Now that most insurance companies have exclusions for DE events, it seems that one of the big reasons for not allowing stop watches etc. is gone. Of course the other (totally viable and significant) reason is to help reduce incidents from people driving past their abilities.

[FTS]

What was getting frustrating about the Cayman? Was it being slow, or was it that you'd already done many DEs with it, so weren't learning or improving much any more, and thus the challenge and interest was going away, which came back once you moved to a different vehicle?

Slowness was not the issue, I think the Cayman is quite fast actually at the track; however, the learning mostly stopped, the excitement of driving it was lost. I never had a 911, although I had driven two before couple of decades ago. Once I got the GT3, it has been fulfilling all of my needs on/off the track and the joy of driving came back for sure.

I owned front engine, front drive cars, front engine rear drivers, 4x4s, AWDs, and with the Cayman I had my first mid-engine car, it was time for the rear-engine magic :)

I love time trials. I come from a stage rallying and autox'ing background, so running against time vs. wheel-to-wheel is very attractive to me. I did couple of NASA TTs, but the level of competition is really high, so I need to be much better prepared ;)

[bman]

Thanks for the Cup perspective! The 996 CUP does seem to be the best choice for anyone looking to make the switch to a real track car; cost, performance and thrill are hard to beat. I've had offers to drive both a 996 and 997 Cups
....but I am afraid to drive either simply because I know I will buy one. :D

I still have a Cayman and drove it at VIR a couple of months ago and had a blast. It did feel like slow motion at first but the fun factor was high. I plan on spending more time in the Cayman, ironically, to further my learning. I am fortunate to have both cars, so I might as well get the most out of them.

Moreover, in a DE enviroment, it can be more satisfying hustliing past other cars in Cayman.....in a GT2 everyone expects you to be fast and often think you should be going faster :o With the Cayman, people stop by and say "where you driving this?" With the GT2 they only ask "what's your top speed on the straight?" I know......It's sad and lonely driving at GT2 :-DDD

[Skypalace]

LOL. It's not just at DE. From non-racers that stop by my paddock to look at my car, by far the #1 question I get is "how fast will it go". #2 is "do you have turbos" (usually very surprised when I say no), and #3 is "do you have nitrous".

People don't seem to get the whole car class thing, they see a 'fancy racecar' and assume you're allowed to do anything you want to do (it's a racecar, right?), and why would you NOT put turbos and nitrous on a racecar? :)

To be frank, I couldn't imagine bringing a Cup to a DE. I did DE's and instructed for many years before going racing. I did one DE about 2 years after I started racing, and it made me crazy having to hold up all the time and wait for pointbys, in the advanced/instructor group. And that was with a car 13 seconds a lap slower than my 997 Cup at the same track. That was one of the big reasons I went racing in the first place, and it totally reaffirmed it. Haven't done a DE since, I think that was 9 years ago.

[bperry]

I wish I would have seen this post 2 months ago; very informative. I recently slid down the slippery slope of Cup car ownership. But after reading it all I think I made the right decision buying a 996. I just acquired a 2003 Cup and have aspirations of club racing in a year or two. Now I don't know what to do with the .2 RS. Put it back completely stock for the street alone. Leave it track prepared for the occasional DE? Sell it to pay for all the Stickers I'm sure I'll be buying soon, Lol?

[FTS]

I do not have a cup car, so it is hard for me to justify what I am about to say; however, having driven a 997 cup and seeing how much Larry enjoys his 996 cup, I highly doubt you can truly go back to a street car on the track. The only way is up I guess. I think the market for 997 RSes are holding very nicely, and with credit being so cheap nowadays, it may be a good time to sell.

[bperry]

I do not have a cup car, so it is hard for me to justify what I am about to say; however, having driven a 997 cup and seeing how much Larry enjoys his 996 cup, I highly doubt you can truly go back to a street car on the track. The only way is up I guess. I think the market for 997 RSes are holding very nicely, and with credit being so cheap nowadays, it may be a good time to sell.

Fatih, nice to meet you! Actually those were my thoughts as well. I would sorely miss the RS though. However it's hard to exploit the virtues of the RS on the street and keep ones drivers license or at least I have a hard time.

[mooty]

I wish I would have seen this post 2 months ago; very informative. I recently slid down the slippery slope of Cup car ownership. But after reading it all I think I made the right decision buying a 996. I just acquired a 2003 Cup and have aspirations of club racing in a year or two. Now I don't know what to do with the .2 RS. Put it back completely stock for the street alone. Leave it track prepared for the occasional DE? Sell it to pay for all the Stickers I'm sure I'll be buying soon, Lol?
sell it to buy stickers.
after racing BSR and 6gt3 stripper, i have very little interest driving street RS on street or on track. i even lost interest waxing it like i used to.