911 Platform, Is It Forgiving?

[FTS]

I keep getting ask to compare my Cayman experience vs. the new 911 quite frequently. Of course most people expect me to say that the mid-engine platform felt easier to drive, more balanced and forgiving, and that the controlling the 911's rear-engine layout to require some sort of special skill; so beyond the power differences the Cayman felt better, especially at the track.

I have to admit, those thoughts were my expectations before purchasing the GT3 as well. Granted I only been driving the 3 only for few months, my first 911, so most of the time I am not quite certain how to answer the question without sounding silly. Based on my first three outtings on the 3, the first word that comes to my mind is how forgiving the 3 has felt to me. The rear end seems quite stable and when it let's go, it is truly slow motion and easy to catch, very unlike the Cayman, and the car responds to throttle in such a balanced manner that, I find the car, for now, easy to drive :o I am sure I am no where close to the limit of the car, but what do you all think, what am I missing?

[Gator Bite]

Fatih,

I've never owned or driven a GT-3 on the track, so I can't really say. You message that the GT-3 is actually easy to control at its traction limits is actually contrary to everything I've heard from others.

I can say that in my short track career (22 track days) I've noticed that GT-3s seem to crash and/or go off with much higher frequency than any other model. I've seen two go off, one right in front of me while entering the bus stop at WGI, another right behind me coming through turn 10 on the Monticello South course (reducing radius, we both came in off line because of a late pass). This observation could be caused by the high penetration of GT-3s at track events, or because they have so much power, I don't know. But the big picture suggests that these cars cross the line easily.

I'd encourage you to gather some more seat time before sending too strong a message of how easy it is to go fast in a GT-3, only because folks may read too far into that message. You spent a lot of seat time in a Cayman, learning all there was to know about performance driving, analyzing your technique, sharpening, honing and polishing your skills. So for you, the car may be easy and fun. But I shutter to imagine a track newbie with a big wallet and a small driving resume taking the plunge into a GT-3 missile because he read that it's faster and easier to control during a slide than a Cayman, when the Cayman may be a much safer choice for that individual and his/her skill level.

My point. You do have a magic skill. You know how to drive... :o You did it right. You learned in a car that is truly forgiving, that has moderate power and lots of safety systems. Then when you were fast and knew how to drive, you moved to the more powerful and understandably more dangerous track weapon, the GT-3. So for someone with your skill level, the GT-3 may be easy to drive fast. But think about some of the students you've had... What would happen to them if they had 400+ hp and a less balanced chassis...?

Just some food for thought.

[FTS]

My intentions were not to come across with arrogance, which I'd like to believe I really don't have. On the contrary, I have quite a bit of lack of confidence with the car at this time, hence the question.

My experiences with the GT3 thus far has been positive, but being an overly-analytical person, I have the need to feel every part of the car and learn its language. I don't like reacting, I like expecting if you will. Thus far, I am not quite feeling the car, so I am continuously in a reactive mode without fully understanding its dynamics. So, when I think of describing the car and the first word that comes to my mind is "forgiving," I am doubting myself and really asking for comments and insights from more experienced.

I am certainly not proclaiming that the GT3 is easier to drive and all should get 911s for that reason. I actually always maintained that the Cayman thought me how to be smooth, and fast with my hands and feet, and that it is the best platform to learn high-performance driving. I have no special talents at all; actually I am one of those whom has to force himself to learn, things don't come to me naturally, I have to learn theory, and than do a lot of trial and error.

So, my question really is, before I push myself in the new car to explore the limits, I'd welcome any comments that can warn me on how much I can really push or should push. I like taking baby steps, and I am enjoying the adventure of slowly solving a complex puzzle :)

But also here are two additional examples I saw personally: Bman has litterally learned to drive on the Cayman, has about the same seat time as me, and he jumped in to a GT2 and right out of the box he was fast, no hesitation or question, just fast.

Fritz, although it appears he has a lot more experience than me, spent most of his track time on Mazda RX-7s as I understand. He gets his first 911, a 997.1 GT3RS, puts on some decent tires, and voila, keeping up with some of the fastest guys out there right out of the box.

Does that speak to the easiness of driving a 911? I would think so.

[TRAKCAR]

I came out of a pushing Mustang when I got my first Porsche; A '07 GT3.
I was pretty worried about the rear weight biased handeling. I felt I could "read and write" and really wring out the Mustang on and over the limit.

To my surprise the GT3 was way easier to handle on and over the limit.
When the rear steps out it is easy to catch, understeer is corrected with a quick lift of the throttle to rotate the car in a bit.
The few times it went fish tailing a bit I let my foor test on the brake and it was like throwing an anchor out the rear, as if stability control was on ;-)
Whadda these guys talking about with their "never, ever lift in a 911, I wondered??!! Old ones yes, new GT3's; Lift all you want..

With the RS now, even easier, you do have SC (When it rains, new tracks etc.) The DEMS make it even more stable and the car has even more stick front and rear.

Going 9/10th in an RS makes you pretty fast around the track :-)

I think they crash a lot because the are just so fast and forgiving, giving some drivers a false sense of thinking they can push harder. The car is fast enough to demand respect, more so for beginners.

[mooty]

the LEGEND of 911 is really of older 911's. drive a 964 or 911, you will understand what what i mean. 996 and later cars dont feel the same as older 911's. the new cars are very neutral and not hard to drive.

lots of gt3 crash not b/c it's hard to drive, it's b/c lack of respect and the car has a lot more hp then drivers are used to.

i have had lots of miles on cay/box. at 7/10 both cars are easy to drive. subtle differences that takes 2 turns to get used to. at 9/10, you think you are superman in cay/box as it's as easy as 7/10. 9/10 in gt3 is scary for me. car dances everywhere telling you your end is near. at 10/10, 911 becomes friendly. it stops dancing and tells you what it wants you to do. listen and you will be fine. cay is still easy to drive at 10/10 until 10.00001/10. should you screw up, you spin like a top in cay box. have you spun a box/cay before? if you haven't, you dont know what i mean. you spin like a top, really, round and round and round until you have no idea where you are on the track. if you spin a gt3, it's extremely rare that you do more than 360. and usually i can catch the gt3, but can't catch cay box.

[mooty]

reter's ref about lift.
you can lift as long as you reapply throttle.
but try to lift on the bank of daytona, that will not be pretty

and the 7 is much easier to drive than the 6.
not sure it's the nannies, or what, but the 7 isnt nervous like the 6

[TRAKCAR]

you spin like a top, really, round and round and round until you have no idea where you are on the track.


LOL, that sounds like it was scary!

Well, yolu never really lift all that abrupt and completely off course. I'm very scared of Daytona this year. With bumps in 6th. at 170Mph I had an excuse to lift when I look at the data. I blamed it on bumps. Now with new aero and smooth surface, will it to 190Mph??

I think I keep gurney and max wing, maybe that will slow me down a bit, as long as the nose won't take off...

[FTS]

This is exactly what I have been thinking. Lifts in the middle of the corner are very docile but effective. The first comment I made, the very first time I rode in Ryan's 7.2 RS was how he could lift in the middle of the high-speed corners and get such compliance. I thought he must have been leaving a lot on the table and the Hohos he was running were certainly helping. But after I have done the same on R888s, I am feeling quite confident, but I don't want to feel like a superman either. We have received too many bad news in the past month or so, I don't want to add my name to that list at this time.

[bman]

My 1st impression of driving a GT, to quote Seinfeld, was "nothing". The GT platform, compared to the Cayman, is so solid that I had difficulty reading the car. In contrast, the Cayman is more nervous and wiggles & jiggles it's way around the track. In the GT2 I was having trouble feeling the limit probably because I wasn't near it:o. I found myself, looking for open corners and tossing the car to get it step out.

It took a couple of sessions to learn the feel of the GT2; I discovered that it talks to you only when needed but you'd better listen. Could the number of accidents in GT cars be contributed to their solid build? i.e. a nervous car makes for a nervous driver whereas as a solid car builds too much confidence?

Easy to throttle steering.....awesome braking.....easier to rotate under braking.....love it!

[Gator Bite]

To my surprise the GT3 was way easier to handle on and over the limit.
When the rear steps out it is easy to catch, understeer is corrected with a quick lift of the throttle to rotate the car in a bit.
The few times it went fish tailing a bit I let my foor test on the brake and it was like throwing an anchor out the rear, as if stability control was on ;-)
Whadda these guys talking about with their "never, ever lift in a 911, I wondered??!! Old ones yes, new GT3's; Lift all you want..

With the RS now, even easier, you do have SC (When it rains, new tracks etc.) The DEMS make it even more stable and the car has even more stick front and rear.

Going 9/10th in an RS makes you pretty fast around the track :-)

I think they crash a lot because the are just so fast and forgiving, giving some drivers a false sense of thinking they can push harder. The car is fast enough to demand respect, more so for beginners.

the LEGEND of 911 is really of older 911's. drive a 964 or 911, you will understand what what i mean. 996 and later cars dont feel the same as older 911's. the new cars are very neutral and not hard to drive.

lots of gt3 crash not b/c it's hard to drive, it's b/c lack of respect and the car has a lot more hp then drivers are used to.

i have had lots of miles on cay/box. at 7/10 both cars are easy to drive. subtle differences that takes 2 turns to get used to. at 9/10, you think you are superman in cay/box as it's as easy as 7/10. 9/10 in gt3 is scary for me. car dances everywhere telling you your end is near. at 10/10, 911 becomes friendly. it stops dancing and tells you what it wants you to do. listen and you will be fine. cay is still easy to drive at 10/10 until 10.00001/10. should you screw up, you spin like a top in cay box. have you spun a box/cay before? if you haven't, you dont know what i mean. you spin like a top, really, round and round and round until you have no idea where you are on the track. if you spin a gt3, it's extremely rare that you do more than 360. and usually i can catch the gt3, but can't catch cay box.

My 1st impression of driving a GT, to quote Seinfeld, was "nothing". The GT platform, compared to the Cayman, is so solid that I had difficulty reading the car. In contrast, the Cayman is more nervous and wiggles & jiggles it's way around the track. In the GT2 I was having trouble feeling the limit probably because I wasn't near it:o. I found myself, looking for open corners and tossing the car to get it step out.

It took a couple of sessions to learn the feel of the GT2; I discovered that it talks to you only when needed but you'd better listen. Could the number of accidents in GT cars be contributed to their solid build? i.e. a nervous car makes for a nervous driver whereas as a solid car builds too much confidence?

Easy to throttle steering.....awesome braking.....easier to rotate under braking.....love it!

Wow... Lots of great stuff here. Good idea on starting this thread Fatih. It has provent to be very informative.

I have to admit, as one of the guys who hasn't driven a GT-3, I have been buying into the "watch out for the rear engine" hype at least a little. But part of me knew deep down that the current GT-3s must be incredible, just because so many people whom I respect have said so. There has to be something there.... Hearing it from respected guys (all of you) who have expereinced both is very interesting....

[FTS]

There has to be something there.... Hearing it from respected guys (all of you) who have expereinced both is very interesting....

And you included Bman in that category too? ::-/
:kiss:

[TRAKCAR]

Me and my big mouth:
FF to 3:40 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVLi9izB3w8&feature=related

[FTS]

Hahaha, very nice catch actually. And aren't we talking about "forgiving"? Quick hands too. As I was watching the vid, I could not help but think how many times you were shifting mid-corner at full throttle, and quite forgiving.

[bman]

And you included Bman in that category too? ::-/
:kiss:

:ballkicked::ballkicked::ballkicked::ballkicked:

Me and my big mouth:
FF to 3:40

Whoa! Nice catch!

[kyrocks]

the LEGEND of 911 is really of older 911's. drive a 964 or 911, you will understand what what i mean. 996 and later cars dont feel the same as older 911's. the new cars are very neutral and not hard to drive.

lots of gt3 crash not b/c it's hard to drive, it's b/c lack of respect and the car has a lot more hp then drivers are used to.

i have had lots of miles on cay/box. at 7/10 both cars are easy to drive. subtle differences that takes 2 turns to get used to. at 9/10, you think you are superman in cay/box as it's as easy as 7/10. 9/10 in gt3 is scary for me. car dances everywhere telling you your end is near. at 10/10, 911 becomes friendly. it stops dancing and tells you what it wants you to do. listen and you will be fine. cay is still easy to drive at 10/10 until 10.00001/10. should you screw up, you spin like a top in cay box. have you spun a box/cay before? if you haven't, you dont know what i mean. you spin like a top, really, round and round and round until you have no idea where you are on the track. if you spin a gt3, it's extremely rare that you do more than 360. and usually i can catch the gt3, but can't catch cay box.

Can't agree with Mooty more on this one. Like many here, I learned on a Cayman S and drove that thing 10/10ths. I was superman. Once you spin, you are done. The car was very forgiving. I've only had 3 track days with the GT3, and that thing is FAST!. Many, if not all, the driving techniques I learned with the Cayman apply to the GT3. I have a 997.2 so it is relatively easy to drive. I respect the car, but still drive fast. The first time I got into it, I beat my best Cayman time by just over 5 seconds (2.2 mile track)! Yes, the back can slip out a little quicker than the Cayman, but I think it is relatively controllable and predictable. I can't tell you it's gonna be like that at 10/10ths because I've never been there...yet. Overall, the Cayman is easier and more forgiving at the limit, but the 997.2 GT3 is not the unforgiving monster some people claim it to be. The GT3 is MUCH, MUCH faster and way more fun for me. I am always exhausted at the end of a session because it requires more skill and concentration than the Cayman. Both great cars though.

[FTS]

I think you make good points as well. What the word "forgiving" to me means is recoverability from a mistake induced from an input from the driver. As you mentioned, if you get into a slide with the CS, it is very likely that you will spin. However, with the GT3, thus far at least, even when the back "snaps," recovering has been much easier for me.

However having said this, I think what you are stating is that with speeds the GT3 reaches and how quickly it reaches them, there is a lot for the driver to consider while driving it, and there are more opportunities for a driver input to induce an unwanted reaction from the car.

Does it make sense?

[jurnes]

Hello All. My first post on this great website.

I am also a change over driver from the 987 platform to the 997.

My car is a 2008 911S with pretty much a completely adjustable suspension: Bilstein coilovers (PASM compatible), two piece LCA's, TPC sways (5/4 adjustments). Tarrett links and toe kit, dog bones.

I had a very nice setup on my 987 RS60 Boxster and was very confident in the car. During the period where I way getting the suspension setup (this done over many DEs) I had a temporary period that gave me snap oversteer, which was very unnerving to say the least!

It was at that time that I realized that a mid engine car is not only very neutral to inputs, but that it will also rotate quite freely once the limit is reached.

Now my track days are in the 997 platform: I initially felt that the tail end was way to influential, especially at higher speeds. I had the corner weighting changed to get the back end down a little and now even with crappy street tires (PS2s) the car is just a second or so slower than the boxster was, even though the Boxster had DOT comp tires and race seat and restraints. (these two items: tires, restraints are good for about 4 plus seconds a lap by my estimation). I can throttle steer the car at both low and high speed. The car settles in just fine powering through apexes.

I have quickly forgotten that the engine is "way back there".

The Boxster was lighter and the 911 has more power but I think that is pretty close to an equal trade off.

Engine HP on the Boxster was 325, and the 911 is about 375. Boxster wieghed 3000, 911 weights just under 3200.

[FTS]

Hello All. My first post on this great website.
Thank you jurnes, and welcome, great first post.

I am also a change over driver from the 987 platform to the 997.
...

Now my track days are in the 997 platform: I initially felt that the tail end was way to influential, especially at higher speeds. I had the corner weighting changed to get the back end down a little and now even with crappy street tires (PS2s) the car is just a second or so slower than the boxster was, even though the Boxster had DOT comp tires and race seat and restraints. (these two items: tires, restraints are good for about 4 plus seconds a lap by my estimation). I can throttle steer the car at both low and high speed. The car settles in just fine powering through apexes.

I have quickly forgotten that the engine is "way back there".
It is really interesting that all the feedback we have had thus far mirrors your experiences. We ought to write an article on this, I bet we would get a lot of fan and angry emails :-)))