Re: Close Call at South Bend
 

dell, i just watched your vid. nice driving and i like the woohoos!!! haha

Re: Close Call at South Bend
 

Just one of those moments when I felt like a kid all over again :)

Re: Close Call at South Bend
 

i totally understand those moments...

i have a job but dont have a job. then i can go to my job but i cant do anything there or talk to anybody. its ridiculous!!

Re: Close Call at South Bend
 

I'm actually watching ESPN right now listening to it as a nice diversion from work. However, the diversion is a bunch of contradiction. You are allowed to go to work but the doors are locked or all the staff has been sent home. How y'all keep your heads screwed on right is beyond me. Hang in there.

Re: Close Call at South Bend
 

I'm not even going to ask... :p

Re: Close Call at South Bend
 

Sorry to keep the questions coming but how do you deal with the slight left hand entry up the hill under hard braking? Do you breathe off ever so slightly to add that touch of steering and then hard on it again? Or are you already turning in when you go to the brake? Late for me is the 2 marker (2 1/2 normally). I know I can go deeper but what's holding me back is that slight turn in. I KNOW you're NOT recommending this, I am just curious how you deal with that slight turn in.

For T10, are you fully off the brake (and on the gas) before adding ANY steering? Or do you have a touch of brake as you begin turn in?

Thanks!!!!

Can't agree more with this one. Staying left and waiting a split second works amazingly well. But at 125+MPH it takes some getting use to.

I must be running with the wrong people....I've never WooHoo'd chasing FTS around :p

Nice Peter! I regret that we didn't run together at David Murry. Next time...

Re: Close Call at South Bend
 

Please do, no worries

Re: Close Call at South Bend
 

Talking with Peter Krouse on this about my driving, he recommended starting the braking at the turn-in. I told him I'd rather play with smaller balls...::-/


Of course you are running with the wrong people, I should say "were." I WooHoo'd chasing you :D

I won't here. Hopefully I'll see you and Dell at VIR next month and we'll make a dinner conversation ;)

Re: Close Call at South Bend
 

Don't know if I will make it next month but I do plan on attending the PCA zone 2 club race in June. I had a blast last year and had more track time than I could handle

Re: Close Call at South Bend
 

There is track time during the club race, I assume for advanced drivers?

Never mind, found the info, I will put it in the calendar. Btw, if any one has events to advertise, I cannot keep up with all the track and social events that PCA puts out, let alone other clubs, please feel free to add them to the Register's calendar.

Re: Close Call at South Bend
 

This turned out to be a great thread, very informative. So with the risk of being an a$$, as the contrarian I am, I'll add few of my notes with no offense intended to anyone.

How is the lock ups set up with the cup LSD?

I'll give my 2 cents:

• T1: I don't think you are trailing the brakes enough and missed the apex on both of your fast laps. On the first lap, you also turned in too late IMHO. In my experience turning in early with very slight steering while trailing the brakes until the car attitude is right for throttle nets as much as 0.7 seconds just on the braking zone alone.
• T2: for some reason you short shift to 4th gear and probably lost 0.5 secs because of that. Stay on 3rd.
• T3: as others mentioned, you can turn in earlier and let it drift with speed with less steering.
• T6-6a: I'd stay off the curbs there. Our friend hit the bridge during Zone 2 event, because he put the left rear on dirt on 6a and lost the control. Going over the curbs really does not add to speed or take less time that has any significance.
• UpHill eSess: I used to take your line, albeit much slower. Although it is counter intuitive, adding some curves to your line while avoiding all the curbs makes the car feel more settled and much more confidence inspiring. Just wait a split sec more before your turn ins. Just like Dell describes, it works much better.
• I was criticized for taking Oak Tree similar to you because I was abusing the tires and sliding the car too much for that turn. I was told by a coach to brake later after T10 and trail the brakes until the attitude of the car at Oak Tree is right and then get on gas hard. Something for you think about and to work on for me ;)
• We can all brake later into T14 as Dell mentions.

Dell, I hope you don't mind if I disagree with you on couple of things ;)

I've had this discussion so many times, I lost count, and it applies to several other places as a general practice for me. Your technique actually penalizes you more than providing gains. Shifting down/up is at least a 0.4-0.5 sec activity, in which you are off the gas and actually decelerating. The LongG generated in second gear is about 0.4-0.45 vs 3rd gear of about 0.35. Lifting off throttle generates a negative LongG of about 0.14 to 0.18 at that speed. So, shifting from 2nd to 3rd actually nets you a loss of about 0.1 to 0.2 secs in that corner. It feels faster, but I haven't seen any data that shows gains.

Same point as T1 for me. Although with the GT3 having 8500 rpm it is possible to ride 2nd gear all the way past T6; however, you are adding one more shift than necessary IMHO. Taking T4 with 3rd, you can ride the throttle all the way to the bridge straight. And since you have to short shift from 2nd to 3rd in your technique, lifting off throttle turning into T5, you are not able to take full advantage of the torque that comes only at full throttle, so no gain from 2nd gear, but actually loss of few tenths.

I don't think you can be on full throttle into T15 on second gear, so no torque advantage, and you are short shifting, so the net is again a loss due to shifting activity. Staying on 3rd, you can be on full throttle, full torque available and don't lift until trailing the brakes into T16.

One of the most common mistakes we make I believe is go with what feels fast without knowing what is actually fast. I am not saying this because I am fast, clearly not as much as Dell or many others, but looking at data and painstakingly analyzing every single corner. I collected so many instances of data from VIR and Summit about this 2nd vs. 3rd vs. 4th gear stuff that, to me there is no argument. But I have been proven wrong many times before ;)

darn it, where is the emoticon that hides behind a wall? Pete, we need that one buddy!

Re: Close Call at South Bend
 

Thanks Fatih!
I will try to post this years lap. Slower but I think I drove better and did some of what you mention above.

Re: Close Call at South Bend
 

No worries disagreeing. The discussion is what fosters the best result for everybody.

Keep in mind all of my comments and suggestions are based on my 996 GT3 so it might be different for y'all with higher redline and a significant amount of more power.

As far as the 2nd versus 3rd gear I would have to find the data files but I tried it both ways and the data clearly showed I was faster. The delta between accel in 2nd + shift 3rd is faster than just accel in 3rd. There is no low end power in the GT3 and falling outside the meat of the power (up at top) you are really giving back time.

There is no way for me to take 2nd to T6 or I'd be bouncing off the rev limiter.

The T4->T5 transition was also faster in 2nd versus 3rd.

With all of that said, it is easier to take 3rd instead of 2nd in those spots since you can be WOT without all the torque of the top of the power band. But make no mistake, your accel is slower in 3rd.

Again with T14a->T15 taking 2nd is faster. I didn't believe it and had to run it both ways with data to show the time I was picking up.

I'd have to find the data files but I have countless files from VIR and finding that test file would be like finding a needle in a haystack. At least I have a project for this event! :)

Re: Close Call at South Bend
 

dell, did you have shorter gearing in your 996 like the current RS does. the .2RS gearing is a lot shorter than the .2 non RS.

Re: Close Call at South Bend
 

Man, finally someone who keeps data files and actually looks at them! :D It would be great to compare some data, even if it is 996. May be we can look at data together next month when we find the time.

I found a geek! I found a geek! :kiss:

Re: Close Call at South Bend
 

i like me some curbs
http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/5...2june6678w.jpg

Re: Close Call at South Bend
 

been known to scare people some times too. lol
http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/3...e2june0778.jpg

Re: Close Call at South Bend
 

naughty naughty!

:D

Re: Close Call at South Bend
 

haha, i didnt do it on purpose...

with all this info, i cant wait to get back to VIR

Re: Close Call at South Bend
 

1st and 2nd were stock. 3rd-6th were shorter.


I am a total stats geek. The only way I got faster was data analysis :-8

Nice! :-DD

Re: Close Call at South Bend
 

As far as the differences we have about which gear, etc, the bottom line is that data doesn't lie. I strongly encourage anybody that has data to really use it as a teaching and learning tool. Instead of trying to run the fastest lap every single time out, just work on specific sections the best of your ability and try them a few different ways. Then do sector analysis to let the data do the talking.

Re: Close Call at South Bend
 

Fatih, if you know AIM stuff, I could use your help insetting up some review protocols. :)

Re: Close Call at South Bend
 

:-DD:-DD:-DD:pals:

I have been preaching this for the last several years; yeah baby!!!

Re: Close Call at South Bend
 

i never really was into to the data side until i got some coaching from seth thomas and he would drive my car, then i would drive and we would immediately pull up the data to compare. he showed me a lot with the whole time gap vs distance, acce/braking vs distance etc. but i still have a lot to learn to fully understand everything

Re: Close Call at South Bend
 

It can get overwhelming I agree but as long as you have somebody that knows how to read the data or at least teach some basic interpretation then the benefit is huge. Having somebody put some data down for you in your car and then comparing yours will really show the places for improvement.

The other thing that data taught me is what the CAR is capable of. There are corners on tracks that aesthetically scare the crap out of us and we "think" we are at the limit. Then you see the data and know the car is capable of more latG.

All this talk has got me itching to go hit the circuit!

Re: Close Call at South Bend
 

What do you guys use for logging?

Re: Close Call at South Bend
 

My butt.

Re: Close Call at South Bend
 

Just kidding. Couldn't resist :)

I use Traqmate.

Re: Close Call at South Bend
 

AIM, Evo4, with ECU and GPS data

Re: Close Call at South Bend
 

Sorry to hear that. Me too.

Re: Close Call at South Bend
 

You don't like TM?

Re: Close Call at South Bend
 

Hate it with a passion. I should file suit for the "timing made easy" slogan.
Their support and manuals are insulting.
The software has not been updated for years. Not sure if the company is still active besides selling what they developed years ago.

Re: Close Call at South Bend
 

I have never needed to contact their support so I can't speak from experience. The software though I did find very easy to learn and use.

Re: Close Call at South Bend
 

I have tried. They just lck you out of the forum when you show frustration.

The first years I owned it no local supprt and it never worked right.
After local support (great guy) started to exist it sometimes works.

Just spent 3 hours yesterday to get data on my laptop.
I could not do it, can't find the port. This is new problem but it is something every time.

In typical Traqmate style there is no solution, except try to reboot and maybe the 50th time it will work. I work hard to discourange anyone to invest in Traqmate, because they see the cool video and think it works great.

I have too much $$ invested to buy something else now, but will as soon as I find a better supported alternative.

Re: Close Call at South Bend
 

If it is any consolation I agree with you that support is vital. I can say AIM has fantastic support. I had AIM (MXL Pista) in my last two race cars (RS America and Spec Boxster) and it is phenomenal how powerful it is. The other side of that is you need a course in how to really learn the software. I let my engineer do the data interpretation for me and it was usually between sessions.

Re: Close Call at South Bend
 

Yes, I looked at AIM, Vbox and Racekeeper but I wanted to wait to see if any company would take the lead for wide spread support. Orbit is just starting to use VBox. It looks nice, but I wanted them to get a bit more experience before I garbage the Traqmate, but now it has become totally useless, except for seeing my laptimes as I pass start/finish.

Re: Close Call at South Bend
 

One thing that would be really nice if we can choose something for our Register members, so we can share files across the board. I am not sure there is an ideal setup that will please everyone, but at least for DE purposes, we would need something reliable with support and easy to use.

Frankly, the RacePak unit I have, has been very reliable, almost fire-and-forget type if you don't worry about the TPS, RPM and other electrical connections as options, and their support has been superb. When I have an issue with the software, they remotely connect to my laptop and do things for me :) What is not so nice is the Datalink software, cumbersome and complex at best.

So now I am looking at this: http://www.chasecam.com/catalog/29/dm10datamodule

The software seems to be very good as I hear, the new version, cheap, auto video/data integration and reliable ODBII connection via ODBII cable, so single cable, you get all. It is still lacking yaw readings, but for the price, I can live with it.

Re: Close Call at South Bend
 

The only problem with Chasecam is their video systems. They are horribly unreliable. Systems like the POV-VIO 1.5, the GoPro HD, and even SmartyCam are the preferred solutions. If I went with an all-in-one solution I would go with SmartyCam. Scott has the setup and it is very cool.

Re: Close Call at South Bend
 

But how do you get the data out of SmartyCam to do actual analysis, not just show-and-tell?

Re: Close Call at South Bend
 

The SC is tough to beat for and all-in-one for:

• laptimes and speeds (based off GPS)
• G meter
• video with data overlay in one shot

Its rechargeable and can last a full day, and the video is easy to pull off of the micro SD.

However, if you want RPM, throttle, brake, etc, you need an ECU bridge, which I did install myself without too much issue; this setup however still isn't a true datalogger; I've heard it might be in the future though.

I am now running the EVO4 + MyChron3 + SC. (link) (link)