DE, Why Bother?
 

Some folks are of the opinion that DE has its limits. If you tweak your car enough, you are wasting your money and should just buy a "race car". Real men (and ladies) graduate to wheel-to-wheel racing.

While always willing to keep an open mind and change my opinion at any time :-)( I enjoy DE and Time Trials and choose not to move to wheel to wheel for the following reasons.

1. DE is no pressure and very relaxing.
2. Lower cost of participation. Much fewer consumables.
3. Less chance of car to car contact.
4. Less chance of catastrophic crash due to wheel to wheel contact.
5. A DE car can be and usually is street legal. A pure race car is not street legal. A Cup car can never be street legal.
6. DE gives you a whole lot more track time and events during the year to participate in.
7. You can make any changes to your car that you like as there is no rule book to restrict you.

During my GT3RS build project over the winter, adding a cage, new suspension, race exhaust I frequently worried if I was going too far over the top. Folks asked me if I was just wasting my money on a street car.

But I must say, I now enjoy DE more than ever and the car is a pure joy to track. Plus I have the reward of tuning the car exactly as I like it. To me DE is as valid a pursuit as anything else?

What do you think about this topic and what is right for you?

Re: DE, Why Bother?
 

I wholeheartedly agree. I have no need to race to prove anything. I enjoy the camaraderie of the club and experience enough adrenaline to be satisfied. My main objective is to have fun and bring the car home in the same condition it went. Plus I've made some great friends along the way.

Re: DE, Why Bother?
 

Over the top? You? ;)

In hindsight, I went too far with my Cayman. JRZ's, GT3 Brakes, LCA's, etc...It's still driven on the street but it's not comfortable. I considered stripping it and adding a cage but decided it's not the car I want to race.

I don't intend to do much to the GT2. It's a perfect balance between street and track.

There's a good chance I'll have a cup car one day but for now I am enjoying DE's. My wife is also DE'ing so it's great way for us to get away and spend time together with friends.

Re: DE, Why Bother?
 

great post trackrate.
i have been and still am in both. let me shed some light here.

1. DE is no pressure and very relaxing: yes, indeed. i dont like to hire track support, i am cheap. but without track support. it's EXTREMELY tiring. and i am in very good physical shape with 6 miles runs daily. u chk and recheck everything. tire management is crucial. i have practice tires, qual tires and race tires. so every session, i need to swap tires.


2. Lower cost of participation. Much fewer consumables: indeed. you drive until tires cord. i drive a few HC then i need new tires.

3. Less chance of car to car contact.: yep. BSR hit 2x already. 13 13 rules whatever, if you race, you will rub. or like me, be rubbed.

4. Less chance of catastrophic crash due to wheel to wheel contact.: i haven't had one. but it's a matter of when, not if.

5. A DE car can be and usually is street legal. A pure race car is not street legal. A Cup car can never be street legal.: yes, street legal technicaly but you dont really want to drive your blue car on street much. i dont drive my stripper or BSR on street anymore. but in a pinch i can, cup car i cannot.

6. DE gives you a whole lot more track time and events during the year to participate in.: right on. but to fix that issue. i will run with GGR at BW in both club race group and red group. of course i am not sure the car can be driven that hard that long. so wild mind is now thinking getting a dually and two car trailer. that's two cars for ME for a weekend. but as you all know. i am mentally unstable.


7. You can make any changes to your car that you like as there is no rule book to restrict you.
that's exactly why i hate to pick a class then buy a car. i like to pick a car then race. i dont care about winning $5 trophies. if there's a $10M purse at the end of the day, i be interested. but for $5 i like to do my OWN rules and fun.

Re: DE, Why Bother?
 

I have nothing against racing and would like to race one day just to do it. But when you think of all the money that goes into racing and like mooty said, there's no 10M purse at the end of the day, that's tough

Re: DE, Why Bother?
 

Wait... I am not racing at my de days?

:-)

Re: DE, Why Bother?
 

:-)))

Re: DE, Why Bother?
 

I don't think I'll ever go racing wheel to wheel, somehow just does not capture me as an attractive activity. I agree with all of the above comments about DE; it is a relaxing activity for me as well, I push it when I want the way I want.

However, competing is quite attractive. All my driving since late teens have been in either some sort of stage rallying, hillclimbs, autox or timetrials. To me it is tremendously gratifying to pursue to magical perfect lap on a given track, and once I get it, which I never do actually, I am done with that track. That's how I get the need for competition out of my system.

I am hoping someday, as a Register, we will be able to organize time trials across the US or even abroad. That, to me, is very exciting. For now though, just going to the track with friends, driving together, getting drunk at night together, is more than satisfactory.

Re: DE, Why Bother?
 

DEs are great and I will continue to do as many as schedule allow. That said, I'm focused on getting PCA license and going racing. There's a whole other set of skills that goes into racing and I'm looking forward to learning and refining them.

Bottom-line, any track time is good track time. Just get out there and do it.

Re: DE, Why Bother?
 

Racing has been my dream for about 10 years (can't believe it's been that long ago that I got a race license and never used it). However, it is prohibitively expensive for me. I have zero support as far as a crew (no wife or kids) and I've got no truck and trailer. It's still just a dream...

Re: DE, Why Bother?
 

^ dont worry. since u blame me for not asking if you wanted my trailer, i offer you my very nice truck for sale. i now subscribe to BIGGER is better philosophy. went truck shopping this afternoon. i think i want a peterbilt....

unless you are PJS or belong to truck cult, i think i got the nicest truck on norcal tracks, until my next truck. and i plan to put RS badge on it.

Re: DE, Why Bother?
 

"unless you are pjs"

:-)

Denali hd 3500 ftw (it's all about the air conditioned seats - truck version of a cool suit)

Re: DE, Why Bother?
 

:-)))

Re: DE, Why Bother?
 

My journey from DE student all the way to racing seemed to be the logical path. I'll explain the "seemed" part of that statement in the following paragraphs :)

I started my DE career and was immediately hooked. I had no idea such a thing existed where you could take your car to a race track (like the pro racers do) and legally participate in such a dopamine and adrenaline rush.

I quickly moved from student to Red solo within a year and was told constantly by every instructor and peer that I should really try racing with the skillset I had. The problem is I had no idea what the skillset was. The analogy (and pardon the faux NASCAR one) I would offer is I drove like Cole Trickle from Days of Thunder. I was quick, but I had no idea why or how I could be fast. So, I began trying to find out exactly what it was.

Being the pragmatic thinker in the way I approach a situation, I started creeping baby step after baby step to find out exactly what the car does with various inputs. Then when I fully felt I understand the physics of a car I started to take the car into situations that were abnormal (i.e., offline, bailout, braking too soon/late, throttle too soon/late, etc, etc, etc). I wanted to be able to fully understand so that EVERYTHING on track became 100% unconscious.

After heading to the slippery slope of making the car "better" with suspension, brakes, etc., I realized the envelope edge became smaller and smaller with the margin for error almost nill. This created a style of driving in me where my respect for speed and the danger that comes with it is one that is very healthy. Meaning what exactly? I do NOT take risks outside my ability for fear of wadding up a 6-figure car. This (taking risks outside your ability level) is the one thing I see in new solo drivers all the time as well as advanced students. Their brain seems to think they can do something that their true ability will not allow.

Scroll forward from the transition from DE to racing. I actually regret this more than anything but feel it is a learning experience that will benefit others.

When I decided to go racing I sold my GT3 to buy a purpose built race car. I decided that I wanted to buy a car based on class rather than a car I really want. I found a class that routinely had some of the largest participation. I bought the car that fit in that class and one that somebody else had prepped.

My first race weekend was a little overwhelming. I had no idea how much talent and fast drivers there were. My first practice session was baptism by fire. I had no idea that practice was more intense that the most intense red session a DE could throw at you. Now I'm hooked.

Won a race and did very well in the others that first race weekend. Next race was the 6 hour haul to Road Atlanta for my next race weekend. Once again, did very well and won both in the rain and the dry.

Then I had several months before the VIR race to sit down and plot a course where I wanted to go in my racing career. That was the downfall. I started thinking about all the money I was spending on racing and worse yet, what I could have done with all that money. I was never putting my family finances in jeopardy but that money spent was quite the reality check. Over the next year of building a race car, dealing with a race shop that seemed to always over promise and under deliver, spending money that you just can't get back and I made the decision to stop racing. When you ask yourself what all that money got for you, if you truly listen to your gut, you realize that got you very little. Don't get me wrong, the rush of racing WTW is amazing and nothing in DE will get you that feeling. But what are we racing for? Bragging rights on Rennlist? Seriously? I already proved myself and my ability. I know I have a high level of ability. I know I am well respected by my peers on track. When you realize that you do not need to be at the top of the time sheets to garner that respect, your life will be much more stress free.

I truly love instructing and decided that I was going to get back into DE's once again. I had no idea how much I missed DE's until I went back. I have a new outlook on DE's. Going to a DE is almost like going on vacation where racing is like going to work. The stress level at the DE is almost non existent. The money spent is just a fraction of a race weekend. I have learned how to give point-by's :ROFL!:.

I now drive my weekend car (996 Turbo) at track days. It is virtually stock in every way. I run 3 point belts! I don't feel the need to push it to the limit and I will NEVER mod it like my past cars. That is a refreshing feeling. And the best part? I have just as much fun in a virtually stock Turbo that I did in a very well sorted GT3. The moral to that story is that you don't have to dump tons of $$$ into your car to have the same level of fun.

At the end of the day, I now enjoy track weekends more than I thought was possibly and the cost compared to my race habit has flushed my bank account in the black :-8

Sorry for the long winded reply but the journey was one that I hope somebody can get value from.

Re: DE, Why Bother?
 

Wow! That is one of the best posts I have read anywhere in a very long time. Thanks Dell for taking the time and making the effort to create it. Very interesting and helpful to walk alongside one man's journey and experience the thought process. Certainly valuable perspective for me as I explore and chart my own path.

To each his own I say and whatever makes you happy is what you should do. "Know thyself"

:pals::-DD

Re: DE, Why Bother?
 

More good stuff, thanks John! You have been/are doing both so valuable feedback.

Let me be clear that I am sure I would love some wheel to wheel and may yet do it but I thought it might be helpful to air the topic and discuss it rationally :hello:

Interesting to read the thoughts and opinions.

Re: DE, Why Bother?
 

Late to the thread, but great read.

OT, but Mooty, bigger is better: This is the engine you need: http://www.sporttruckrv.com/TruckDetail/AU2422

I do race and have the trophy's: http://www.24hoursoflemons.com/
Won overall; Got $1500.00 in nickels
Won in class.
Won price for doing the most with the least.
Won for whatever, I forget.

A blast to do on the cheap. had a TON of fun.

But racing is work and I already have a job.
Let's say I go racing; Must have coaching, must analyse data, must practice, must setup car, must have newest and best. Everything must be perfect. Other cheat. Should you??

If you don't do all the above you're a loser and are getting lapped. So next time you do it ALL. Get t-boned off the track in T1 and go home. I have seen enough racing and the trauma is creates to stay away from it all.

DE; I must only show up and refill tank and drink beer. Yes, I'm a bit hung over or a lot, car is a bit pushy and I should change tire pressure and sway bar but I am to laze to bend down, just drive around the problem. Have fun. It gets to hot, you skip a session, etc. etc.

Re: DE, Why Bother?
 

Very welcome. I was afraid that maybe it was a bit long winded. But then again, those that really want the input and want hear others experience will read it.

I'm hoping at no point did I come across in a way that I felt I was "all that and a bag of chips" and that I was too good for racing. I know there are plenty of drivers that would blow my doors off but I just felt that being brutally honest was the best way to get my point across. It's just hard to know how others will interpret your words. At least I know here I won't be attacked like those that frequently do on Rennlist.

GT2GT3CUP.org is truly a place I feel like we can be honest and nobody will take joy in insulting you. What a great community! :-8

Bingo! That sums it up perfectly and a point I agree with 100%. I said in my writeup as well that racing just felt like work and DE feels like vacation. If you want to do well in racing you have to really work at it (as you said). If you don't then why are you even racing?

I much prefer to just fill up the tank, drink beer, and not give a damn if you forgot to adjust your pressures. :-DD

Besides, I have nobody to impress anymore except my 1 and 3 year old boys.....my future racers :D

Re: DE, Why Bother?
 

The answers to this thread has been surprising to me, I was expecting a lot more in favor of racing, getting ready for racing, etc. I think we are probably a little too small of a community just yet.

Dell, really eloquently put. And I am so much like Peter, I just want to drive and want the car to be reliable not to mess with it. The social aspect of a DE as well as instructing makes my weekend every single time.

I, on behalf of all the people that put their sweat into this, truly appreciate the words and so glad you feel that way. Thank you, it means a lot to us.

Re: DE, Why Bother?
 

Fatih, I stopped posting regularly in the racing/DE forum over 2 years ago for the very things I stated above. This place (GT2GT3cup.org) for us to share info reminds me much more of the 996GT3 subforum on Rennlist. There is an immense amount of repsect and commraderie amongst the guys. You rarely ever see a smackdown there. The racing/DE forum it is a daily occurrence and just makes you not want to visit.

Just 3 short days from now I'll be on my balcony watching the climbing esses with a cold beer in my hand!

Re: DE, Why Bother?
 

That's what I'm talking about!
Drive a little on the track, stare at beatiful cars, have some fun afterwards with people who can still stand you after talking cars for hours on end ;-) and contemplate that there are really a lot of people out there who's life really sucks a lot more then your because they either don't know how or can't enjoy life.<!-- controls -->

Re: DE, Why Bother?
 

Peter, I just got a good laugh out of that gif! I was waiting for an image to load thinking my computer was a bit slow and finally realized that the image waiting to load is actually the spinning progress image. Touche'

Re: DE, Why Bother?
 

Probably the most important point of the post in my opinion.

I race karts- situps and a bit of laydown, in the WKA NRRS (National Road Race Series). At the speeds we go in that series we are very serious about the prep level and driver ability. DE is a vacation compared to racing.

My progression went from DE, to open wheel, to road racing karts, and now probably back to DE in the long term.

In DE there is no stress, there is no competition, the only thing pushing you is yourself. I liken a DE day to a ski resort day- you can have as much fun as you want- you can rip the backcountry black diamonds if you have the ability and equipment, or play on the groomer greens if you're so inclined. I am not going to be the next MSC so I don't worry about racing at the sharp end of the grid anymore, so I race for fun (karts are way cheaper than open wheel cars).

DE is very different from racing. Racing is about competing within a very defined set of rules- DE is about learning how to drive better.

In the end, life is too short to worry about what the next guy thinks as long as you're keeping to yourself.

Re: DE, Why Bother?
 

Dell, I saw it in my reply. How did that get there???
I thought I deleted it and I don't see it now. I was not trying to anoy you LOL.

Re: DE, Why Bother?
 

Hanging out with track pals is "validity" enough for me! Glad the Registry forum is starting on a good foot.

+1 as usual for my friend Fatih.

I am so totally not into all the BS smackdown stuff. Have fun, respect others, even if they order ASS seats in a GT3 :ballkicked: Understand that not everyone has the same risk tolerance and goals. But we all love us some Porsche! lol :D

Well said Peter, well said.

Have fun, be safe, enjoy.

Re: DE, Why Bother?
 

So you were messing with me! :-DDD

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I like them both: one complementing the other. As to the expense of one vs the other: I have only raced wheel to wheel in an old Porsche 944 (24hrs Lemons), which gives me some close (sometimes very close) car to car performance driving with very little capital outlay. My DE monitory investment is substantial.

Re: DE, Why Bother?
 

I would love to race, just to say I've done ot and see how really slow I am :(

Re: DE, Why Bother?
 

Racers

End of day analyze track data, try to squeeze the last second out of pratice video to improve the next day. On track constantly watching mirros to make sure no one passes

DE guys I hang out with

End of the day tell lies about Traqmate lap times, while using beer to lower the number. On track I am constantly watching for Orange or White RS's to throw up a block

Re: DE, Why Bother?
 

NEVER mod dell. good one.


but " Going to a DE is almost like going on vacation where racing is like going to work." is right on. it is EXACTLY what i feel.

Re: DE, Why Bother?
 

the racing forum on RL is the most useless forum there is. a few post real content, the rest made no sense to me. the best is just to chit chat when ppl meet on track. but if i was racing, i dont have time to chat.

Re: DE, Why Bother?
 

reter, you should really visit CA and talk some sense into me.
i think you are very right, no, not the renegade tractor part, but racing is a job....
maybe i will quit after 2011 heehee...

Re: DE, Why Bother?
 

+1


+cold beer

One of my favorite shots when I first went to VIR with the local guys in my 996 C4S.

http://www.digitalsimple.com/C4S/11....AYDSC_0108.JPG

Re: DE, Why Bother?
 

Great shot and that one was one awesome weekend!

Re: DE, Why Bother?
 

Unfortunately over the past 2 years I haven't been able to do as much of either race or DE as I would like. I both race and do DE. And I enjoy each for different reasons. I'll agree that DE is like a vacation and racing is going to work. However, for me, I guess it's like having a job you enjoy. I find racers to be just as social as the DE crew. Maybe I am lucky that a fair amount of people that I DE with are racers as well.

I'm not going to be the next Nigel Mansell so I don't need to pore over data for hours after the practice or qualy session when I race. My race car is out of class and certainly not optimized so I have little chance of winning (NASA GTS3 and PCA I). But, i'm usually at the sharp end of the grid and I have fun safely racing those around me. Maybe I'm the aberration since I don't care if I win so long as I am competitive. Perhaps I'd feel differently if I optimized my car to chase that last tenth of a second. I also realize if I put Pobst in my car, he'd probably pull of a win. so it's really not the car holding me back. I love the competition and truly dancing with the car on that edge and I miss that at DEs.

I love the relaxed nature of DEs. Often i go with my mother (60+ y/o and a transplant recipient!) and I enjoy the bonding. At the DEs, I can skip a session if I want or I can ride with other instructors and pick up tips or I can spend extra time talking to my student about what they are doing and why i do things a little differently perhaps. The lack of intensity throughout the overall event is refreshing.

I'll continue to do 5-10 DEs a year and hopefully race more than the 2-3 times a year (win or lose) I've done lately. Both types of events bring their own rewards.

-KJ

Re: DE, Why Bother?
 

Feel the same way.

I like hanging out with my buddies. BBQing at lunch. Drinking beer at the end of the day and I like that I can go out and blast for a session or just pass and repass my friends for fun. It's amazing what can be learned by constantly driving offline.

I've thought about racing but I don't think I'm all that committed to perfecting setup. I can drive around almost anything. That is why a Lemons type race appeals to me. Minimal $$$ outlay and loads of fun. What's not to like? It is very doubtful you will see me in a CupCar anytime soon. If I took the $$$ from better places I could find a way but I just don't see the point for me. I'm too busy at work and I like to do other things as well. Racing at a high level is another job. A job I have to pay big $$$ to do. Something I really don't need right now although a part of me does see the appeal. Unlimited budget? Different story.

My GT3 is modded. Not because I wanted to go faster. More that I got bored and wanted to try something new. I figured it was cheaper than buying a new car. And it was. And Mooty was a bad influence. I'm like him though I typically use all my tires until they cord. Then I can't believe how much stick a new set of tires has.

I like that I can blow off a session at a DE if I'm not into it or ride with another instructor. At an open day I like arriving mid morning and going until I'm tired and think I've had enough.

I enjoy DEs.

Re: DE, Why Bother?
 

I love to race - period. Give me a choice between a great DE venue and a so-so race, and for me it is not a choice at all. Take everything that you get from driving at a DE, and that is just a small part of what it takes to race. Tweaking the car in practice to get it working as best as possible. Getting that perfect lap in qualifying. And in the race, trying to stay in front of the car behind, while trying to pass the car in front, while planning on how to deal with slower cars, while driving for all you are worth on autopilot is what makes it for me. Passing a car because you can, not because they let you. Plus it gives me the opportunity to only worry about myself for the weekend, something that I get very little time to do at a DE or otherwise. And who can resist those $10 trophies!!! That is why I race.

Re: DE, Why Bother?
 

:-)))

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That's my DE weekend right there....:D

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Really? I guess that I haven't been attending the right DE's lately. I always thought that you needed a passing signal. Plus the one big thing that I left out was that you are running against relatively similar cars, and it mostly comes down to the driver, not the guy who spent more money on his car.