Keep Or Sell? 3RS/Spyder vs Cup
 

So, the inevitable slippery slope question has come forefront:

Dump the affectionately monikered "Piece of Crap" (3RS) and probably Spyder too and buy a Cup?

DE and TT track fun only for me. No real interest in racing. I don't think. The Cup would be a later model with sequential tranny.

1. Is it essentially a given that I must return both modded cars to stock in order to not take a complete and total financial bath upon selling? Or does a market exist for professionally and intelligently modded cars?

2. In a previous thread I proposed and supported a case for tracking a well-modded GT car for fun. Is there a remotely rational (I know, I know...) case to be made for DE and TT'ing a Cup for fun?

I don't have to sell either or both, but it seems pretty silly to let the collection of garage jewels grow even bigger by adding a Cup and keeping everything else.

The 3RS and Spyder are set up as any super-enthusiast would want and it pains me to even consider this :-(( but here it is...I know some of you have been here and can offer some feedback.

Re: Keep Or Sell? 3RS/Spyder vs Cup
 

Let me know when the part sale begins.....

My opinion.....

If you just De why a Cup? You will be much faster than everyone always looking for point bys

I like DE with my friends with teh same car

Re: Keep Or Sell? 3RS/Spyder vs Cup
 

A Cup Car is like sex..once you start, you can never stop!

Watch this space for more details on the Porsche Cup Car Experience...absolutely brilliant, and then some!

Trackrat is just ahead of the curve... a man with a plan.

Re: Keep Or Sell? 3RS/Spyder vs Cup
 

i dont know. sex and women aren't very interesting to me.

cup... once you drive it, you will never drive your RS on track again. even with my stripper gt3, i find my 3.8RS heavy and lacking. now if you try a late model sequential cup..... you WILL sell your RS. we can bet on it.

Re: Keep Or Sell? 3RS/Spyder vs Cup
 

If you don't have to then don't

What's one more? :-)

Re: Keep Or Sell? 3RS/Spyder vs Cup
 

A cup car is a little over kill for DE. If you have no intrest in wheel to wheel, then what's the point. For me, I like the thrill of driving a street car to the limit, finding the limit, then making changes to the car (and me) to exceed it. Plus I can always drive it down the street or across the state.

-Troy

Re: Keep Or Sell? 3RS/Spyder vs Cup
 

Just add the CUP car first.
You can always sell the others.

The blue one makes the most sense to sell with the 4.0 on the way, but with the time, money and memories invested I'd never sell it. The 4.0 won't show up until Sept?
The Spyder maybe if you don't value the dop down ride once in a while..

If you do sell, you can first try to sell to fellow nutcase first as-is with all the stuff. I did so with last GT3 and I loved the thought of someone taking the car and continue to track it as intended. Maybe a few $$ less then parting out, but less hassle more satisfaction....

Cupcar, remember that you must trailer and have mechanic with you for CUP. Maybe you can just start them and drive, but I think there might be more to driving a CUP car.
You might go fast, but not like the rough harsh high maint ride after the thrill wears off..
You might love it enough to dump all else and start your own race team, or just use the CUP with full arrive and drive service and just show up with helmet at the races ;-)

Either way there will be a trusty 4.0 and GT2RS waiting to drive you to the circuit.

Re: Keep Or Sell? 3RS/Spyder vs Cup
 

Lol..I will :p

See, I feel the same way right now? All my track pals with exception of one (Mike!) have street cars and it is fun chasing each other on track.

Looking forward to the report(s)! My plans are sometimes a bit over the top, sometimes I need reining in ;)

Yeah, you and Festina...troublemakers the both of you. :p

License, registration, insurance, upkeep...lol. But I do love to drive all of them :-((

That has always been my thought too. But you need one now to keep up with Chuck eh? :whistle: :-)))

Yes, it would be very hard for me to part with the blue car, a labor of love for sure. 4.0 arriving mid/late-Aug.

That is my other concern- I arrive, unload car and drive in current situation. The blue car require minimal upkeep/prep. Nut and bolt it, check pads, that's it.

I have heard, but don't know the facts, that a Cup is going to require much more time dedicated to maintenance and consumables. I was talking to Fatih last night and told him my concern was that it would be like a (big) boat- your two very best days are the day you buy it and the day you sell it :D

Arrive and drive or even going to Barber 2-3 times a year might be the better financial proposition to do some occasional Cup driving for fun?

So I do appreciate everyone making comments as it helps me to clarify my thought process. It is a high-class problem for sure and I/we are very fortunate to have these kinds of things to worry about :-8

Re: Keep Or Sell? 3RS/Spyder vs Cup
 

I think you and Mooty need to get togther and buy one new and share up-keep costs and do endurance races :)

Re: Keep Or Sell? 3RS/Spyder vs Cup
 

Fatih, you're evil.. :-)(

These guys are already down the slippery slope and you are egging them on? :ROFL!:

Re: Keep Or Sell? 3RS/Spyder vs Cup
 

Or as I like to say: "Let's make story's while we can, there are a lot of people out there who's life sucks a lot worse then ours'"

Re: Keep Or Sell? 3RS/Spyder vs Cup
 

I am advocating. :ballkicked:

Re: Keep Or Sell? 3RS/Spyder vs Cup
 

Carry on then :pals:

Re: Keep Or Sell? 3RS/Spyder vs Cup
 

Wow, cup car, 4.0. Some people are just wondering how to pay the rent every month. I live vicariously through you guys. :). Get the cup car and keep everything

Re: Keep Or Sell? 3RS/Spyder vs Cup
 

Take the blue pill, not the red pill....

Re: Keep Or Sell? 3RS/Spyder vs Cup
 

some disagrees with me. but i am certain that cup car CANNOT be DE'd.
i am at BW right now.
in my stripper. i ran the race group and red, the fastest group of PCA here.
the stripper isn't that fast, i have traffic every 3 turns. i am on someone's bumper. one instance, i moved fast, else i would be in his cabin down the front straight. after one session, i only ran the race group. with cup, you will be on brake a lot than on throttle due to traffic.

Re: Keep Or Sell? 3RS/Spyder vs Cup
 

i love a good CUP as much as the next guy but.......

for the sake of a few D.E/track days whatever; having to trailer the car, store the car, wrench the car and crew the car on occasion will take its toll on you and become more work then play.
If you also mess up the sequential box it is 25k.

This is why porsche make the "clubsport" RS in europe. For those looking to have a decent track car that can also be easy to own/street legal. It is the best of both worlds.

Since you already have a "clubsport" RS, you can decide how much further you wish to push the envelope by further stripping the car if you really want to go faster. (light weight doors, interior etc.)
With a stripper .2RS you can run with 996 CUPs until the tires fall off.... the 3.8RS will go down in the history books as one of the best 6 speed p-car street strippers of all time. You will see a lot of these RS models at tracks in 20 years. Fully stripped and on trailers.

in 2013, when the 991 GT3 takes the flag as the faster/better Porsche you can then either completely strip the RS and run PCA stock L class as a racer etc., or sell it because you will be bored of D.E in the car by then and will want to upgrade to 991 GT3 if it indeed is really all that and a bag of chips. :)

Now, that being said, by the time 2013 rolls around you may actually want to sell the RS track trainer and buy a 991 CUP to taste a little racing. Keep the spyder as a collector/toy porsche, as all CUP racers should have at least one old street Porsche to hold in the garage to remember their roots.. :)

Re: Keep Or Sell? 3RS/Spyder vs Cup
 

Okay, let me try to give you a serious response.

1. I would always, always, always keep a 3 RS for lots of reasons, not least of which because it's a special car. Beyond that, there will likely be times when you may not want the hassle of transporting/supporting the Cup or events were you don't feel like bringing a Stinger missile to mix it up with the bare-knuckle brawlers.

So the question on the RS comes down to whether you plan to mod the 4.0 RS (assuming this still has a slot in your warehouse) or bubble-wrap it. If you plan to track and mod then swap all the parts from the 3 RS, return the 3 to stock and sell. Otherwise keep the 3 as your street-legal track toy.

2. Buying a Cup purely for PCA DE events is definitely overkill. Having just spent two days at DE event at The Glen driving and watching Cup cars mix it up with street cars, I can tell you that it's not uncommon to see mid-pack drivers in older Cup cars climbing all over even heavily modded street cars. As an example, an experienced black run group driver I attended event with was running modded Turbo with JRZs/stiffer springs, Hoosiers, etc. He said the Cups were coming up on him like a freight train. He'd have a clear mirror one second then a few seconds later it'd be filled with Cups - didn't matter 996 or 997 Cup. That was on a big wide-open track. Can't imagine a smaller track.

With those caveats aside I'll say that there's no comparison between driving a Cup and a modded street car (short of a full stripper but then what's the point) on the track. Given your trajectory it's inevitable that you'll eventually get into a Cup. Just recognize that it shouldn't be your only track-day tool.

To use an east coast example, it's unlikely you'd want to do a Lime Rock PCA DE where the track is small and the run groups large, but taking it to an limited-participant, open-track Murry event where coaching is part of the equation would be a no-brainer.

3. The fragility of the sequential box is overblown IMHO. The few weak links, such as 3rd gear issues, are easily sorted, and now with everyone running auto-blippers the boxes last just fine as long as you don't do something stupid. Consumables are more about the driver than the car. If you're constantly on the edge you'll use more; not so much, less. Doesn't matter the car.

You seem set on a 997 Cup so I'll save the 996 vs 997 analysis. Just remember that the absolute speed differences between the two are small enough that a better driver in a 996 Cup will be faster than a less skilled driver in a 997 Cup. I'd caution against making too big a jump at once. Jumping into a much faster car without transitioning through intermediate cars is one of the worst mistakes you can make in terms of driver development.

Re: Keep Or Sell? 3RS/Spyder vs Cup
 

Man, this is seriously good stuff. Nothing like the voices of experience :pals: Thanks to everyone for the contribution!

No surprise, you are a fast guy in a fast car ;) I suppose BW would be considered a tight track and technical so would be big differences in speed between those who know the track and those who don't.

You have been there and done that (x2 lol) and what you say makes perfect sense and I cannot argue with the logic. In fact I agree with all of it :-8

Again, a strong, compelling case put forward by a man who is a similar situation. Your comments are spot-on and perfectly sensible.

This thread is already priceless and should be stickied for all the other tortured souls who will be coming here after me and asking the same questions.

I can see it coming already- a DE run group for race prep cars (Cups) only. HOD is already doing that out here at some events.

Thanks guys, awesome stuff!

Re: Keep Or Sell? 3RS/Spyder vs Cup
 

You're an admin, if you feel it is right thing to do, do it :p

But I think the advice is quite true. For DE, open tracking or even time trials, not worth the hassle of owning a Cup car. It will require a crew, many other things to worry about that you are not even aware of right now, and at the end, you'll be, ... let's say, 10-15 secs faster a lap; so what?

I think the best part of a Cup car is if you were going into racing and the option was whether to build a race car from ground up vs. a Cup out of factory, then it is a no brainer.

Re: Keep Or Sell? 3RS/Spyder vs Cup
 

Some really good advice being handed out. With regards to if you wanna race, I've talked to some pro drivers and they all say it's best to go to a lower HP class for a year or so. For instance, miatas, 944's etc before jumping into a cup car. Just something to think about

Re: Keep Or Sell? 3RS/Spyder vs Cup
 

get the cup car and a membership at a track that has member only days. Those days are usually run with a few drivers. You won't have to worry about traffic then.

Re: Keep Or Sell? 3RS/Spyder vs Cup
 

you need to go racing in a spec class (or other, depending on your budget and how much money you have to burn) and see what that is all about. nothing like wheel to wheel racing. DE days are like kindergarden. do it for a few years and have a blast. it puts everything else in perspective.

Re: Keep Or Sell? 3RS/Spyder vs Cup
 

Pete, don't worry too much about, or listen to the voice of reason, it does not belong in this discussion.

The cup is obviously on your mind, so you should get one, even if only to get it out of your system. Only then will you be able to answer the many questions raised (too fast, too high-maintenance, too raw, etc.). And only then will you know what to do with the existing fleet. Go and discover the answer for yourself :D

If you buy carefully, selling won't be too painful, if it even gets to that.

As far as market for well modded cars, there absolutely is one, and I am the perfect example: I got my 6 "because" it was fully modded, and I was/am absolutely thrilled about it. Who would not rather buy a car that's ready v. one that will need the mods eventually? The only problem is that such a market IS smaller; not everyone understands. Returning your cars to stock would be a crying shame.

- You can't say you have no interest in racing until you get closer
- What does Mikymu think about the experience so far?
- I am not convinced that the maintenance costs on a cup would be that much more than on our cars if not raced. And if they are marginally higher, well so be it. I'm pretty sure that it's not about cost for you at this point...
- I would get a cup just for the thrill. Matter of fact, I considered a 996 cup that would have been cheaper than my GT3, but *I* wasn't ready logistics-wise (for me, it's still about the $$)
- Yes, a cup might be too fast for the run-of-the-mill DE, but as has been said elsewhere, there are options

Finally, if you can, you must. Cause if I could, I would... and I just might.

Lots of words, sorry.

Re: Keep Or Sell? 3RS/Spyder vs Cup
 

^ Great post. Straight to the heart of it. Another option Pete: one might devote some entrepreneurial ingenuity to borrowing, renting, or leasing one prior to purchase / ownership. That way a purchase decision is better informed :)

Re: Keep Or Sell? 3RS/Spyder vs Cup
 

^
Exactly the pertinent point to the GT3 Cup experience and you get to compare it to the GT3 and Turbo under the same conditions which helps calibrate the scale, relative appeal and fit. For me, it made the GT3 easier to drive (and push) but then again I stay well within the envelope and, for sure, there is no driving contract in tomorrow's mail for me.

I know if I could handle the speed (and expense!) that I would certainly take a Cup Car over any modded car.....period! It is cheaper in the long run; and has the benefit of professional development and testing versus the good idea, trial and error process which poses as "superior" engineering in many instances.

When extremely high speeds are involved, the predictable, tried and true evolution equates into peace of mind and makes for exciting moments.. instead of excitable moments.

But if you like to tinker...that brings it own (though different) rewards which are not a substitute for a comprehensive package.

YMMV

Re: Keep Or Sell? 3RS/Spyder vs Cup
 

then you have no one to chase or be chased.
i no longer do private track day for that reason.
i want the right traffic. for example, my car is 100hp down and 100 # more than 2000 996RSR's. i can keep them in sight for about 3 laps. those are the three laps i am going 110% and scary myself shitless.
however, i know pete well.
i think he should just buy it and i will use it to scare other DE'ers.

i like that idea.
let's go for it.
i can get a dually and 44' gooseneck so i can bring pete's car with me everywhere ;-)

Re: Keep Or Sell? 3RS/Spyder vs Cup
 

Also, IMHO, an off in a street car destroys a lot of the resale value, not so much in a cup...

Re: Keep Or Sell? 3RS/Spyder vs Cup
 

Good idea, makes sense!

Lol...:-)( Bunch of co-dependents in here, I gotta spend some time away...:p

That is mighty good advice methinks :-DD

PSDS would be a great way to get a proper introduction to Cup. I am thinking seriously about attending.

Hmmm, I see your confusion technique there. I was agreeing with you there for a minute ;)

Another good point.

Re: Keep Or Sell? 3RS/Spyder vs Cup
 

I think if you get a Cup car you will want to race it. Maybe not 8 races per year. I'd be happy with 2 races and the rest spend developing/DE/lapping. I don't know your situation in terms of other car. Over here a Cup would fit right in in the local club that is not expensive to join (around 6k per year for 26 weekend days or so) Plenty of track time and mostly among cars of similar or faster speed. There are a couple 944s in the race car group but you lap them every 5 or 6 laps. All other times you can dice it with other Cups, chase a race prepared Viper or get out of the way of the Stohrs every 6 laps.

On the other hand there is plenty of opportunity to have fun in a "regular" GT3 or RS over here. The same club has plenty of fast cars in the street group and local PCA chapter is GT3 central with lots of good drivers. The black run group (right below red) is the fastest group on average I have driven with anywhere.

So I would judge this on who you can run with and if you can race. You will want to race it even if it's once a year.

I don't think you need full track support for DE/lapping stuff. For the race it's essential. Yes you can survive without it but you are doing it for fun, right?

Re: Keep Or Sell? 3RS/Spyder vs Cup
 

Appropriate thread and glad I found the forum, anyway I was right here where TrackRat is 5 weeks ago.

Sold GT3.1 for 2004 Cup. Did it for safety mainly but also was not gonna make the mistake, again, of taking a perfectly good street car, waste all kinds of money trying to make it half as fast as a true race car. Then spend money putting it back to stock hopefully without shunting it somewhere along the way. I have also found that the rush of track driving just cannot be found safely with street driving anymore, at least not around here (Atlanta). I bought this car with the expectations that I can do it all myself (I do have my own backyard shop with lift which does help a tad). I must be able to load, unload, run and maintain the car within reason, alone. Frankly its not a big deal. I just did it at Roebling and it was no different, albeit louder, than the street car.

Now the Goodie: Let me say and maybe say again. I cannot go back to a street car. The experience is soooo addictive, so visceral. I get it now. You need to experience this too. Yea I know its just DE's but really its much more than that. A clear track and a Cup Car is what makes me not sleep at night. The car is good, really good. About 7 seconds PL good first weekend out. So take the plunge, sell your street fighters, get a big turbo diesel and tow that baby to your next fix. Just put the sold car money away for tires, 1 set per weekend. Yea those new Michelin's were gone, time to try Yokohama's.

Hughp3 -
AMP member, lets get her done.

Re: Keep Or Sell? 3RS/Spyder vs Cup
 

Nice first post Hugh :) Welcome!

Re: Keep Or Sell? 3RS/Spyder vs Cup
 

Somebody gets it!

Re: Keep Or Sell? 3RS/Spyder vs Cup
 

This!

Re: Keep Or Sell? 3RS/Spyder vs Cup
 

:-DD

Anything else is just a compromise.

Re: Keep Or Sell? 3RS/Spyder vs Cup
 

I have done this.

I sold my 6GT3 and RUF RGT to buy my 6 cup. I was not really in the market to buy the cup, but it came to me at a time that I was going to have to do major suspension changes to my 6GT3 if I were to keep it as a track car. The 6 cup is around 2600 pounds and has an RSR sprint engine in it, and it came to me at a price I thought was reasonable based upon condition, the RSR Sprint engine, carbon fiber, wankel axles, etc.

I am lucky, in that I have a membership at Spring Mountain and can go and drive on member days, sometimes on Thursdays or Fridays and can exploit the cup to my driving level. Even though I had quite a bit of track time in my 6 GT3, I am still accumulating Cup seat time and need to get better. I like the manual transmission and do not see myself going to a sequential any time in the future. We now have a group at Spring Mountain that is gravitating back to cups (and RSRS) so soon I expect I will have 5 or 6 people to play with on the track, each time I go.

I kept my 997.1 RS, but never really came to terms with it on the track because once you have a cup, you never want to drive a street car on the track again. I did not like the suspension on the 997.1 RS. I was not driving it that much on the street so I sold it.

I came full circle and bought my 6 GT3 back in April. It happened to come up for sale and I gladly repurchased it. I had both cars at Spring Mountain in May. My 6 cup car was 11 seconds a lap faster than the 6 GT3 on a 3.1 mile track. Same driver, Same day. I keep my cup car at Premier Sports Car Service in Las Vegas, and repurchased the GT3 to use around some of the smaller local tracks in NM and Colorado. I kept reminding myself that day at the track that the 6 GT3 was now my momentum car. And what a momentum car it is. So now I will once again do my own DE's in the GT3, and fly out to Vegas to drive the Cup at Spring Mountain.

It is absolutely true that each time I drive the cup car that I try to maximize my track time because I am paying for support. The only DE's I have taken the car to is Miller Motorsports. I would like to go to Road America with it, and to Daytona some time. Also a few tracks out West under the right circumstances. Is it a PIA to have support? Sometimes. Is it a damn nice luxury to have support? Yes it is. Is it nice to have someone look over the car each time it comes in? Yes it is. Would I buy the cup again? Yes I would.

So far, I am still accumulating seat time and have not raced my Cup. I am reluctant to do so because of the costs fixing items on any resultant offs, spins, or other acts of getting pushed off, doing the pushing off, etc. I currently do not have the disposable income to fix a 20k or 30k off.

Re: Keep Or Sell? 3RS/Spyder vs Cup
 

pranq, right on.
once driven a race car, no street car, however good/fast they are, just not the same.
though stripper is not a cup, but those who really know my stripper knows it's a cup. that's all i can disclose. like you i never liked my .1RS or .1gt3. i can't say why. the 6 was more fun to drive. .2RS was as good as 6gt3, faster but no better. i still like dancing with the 6 more. but i would like a cup next. i have to find a way to hide all these things from the mrs. btw, if you go off in a street car, a big off, it will be 10-20k easy. my little "smoke/fire" incident at regular shop rate would be close to 7,000. and i didn't go off anywhere.

come out to thunderhill with PCA GGR or NCRC july 9-10 and july 16-17
lots of GT3's will be there.

Re: Keep Or Sell? 3RS/Spyder vs Cup
 

Mooty

If I go off because it is my fault I can live with that. That is the risk I take when I go out on the track. What I would not like, is if I get pushed off from behind by someone that has more money than brains.

I definately want to come and run in Cali with all the .org guys and rennlist guys. I just have to figure out when. Maybe I will just have to come out for a road trip soon in the GT3. There are a lot of tracks in Cali I have not been to.

Re: Keep Or Sell? 3RS/Spyder vs Cup
 

Let's see... Cup v. Spyder, or 3 RS (3.8), or 2 RS, or 3 RS (4.0)?

My answer? None of the above. If you're not going to race (and I can't for the life of me figure out why the hell not!), and you're going to continue in DE, then for me the answer is crystal clear.

GET A SPEC MIATA!!!!

You wanna prove your mettle as a driver? Pass me in my high-horsepower, latest, greatest supercar in your dinky little Miata! That will get my attention!!!

PS: Teach your wify how to drive and give her the Spyder.

Re: Keep Or Sell? 3RS/Spyder vs Cup
 

The woman driving the Miata last weekend was driving it very well, but there is no substitute for hp :-)( But I hear you and understand your point. Wify is scared enough just street driving, no way in a billion years would she venture out on track unless it was closed to other cars! lol