MovIt Carbon Silicon Carbide Rotors as PCCB Replacement?
 

I have been working with MovIt for eight months now on a PCCB replacement brake system for my Boxster Spyder and GT3RS/GT2RS. 2RS and 3RS share identical rotors/hats/calipers/pads. The OE PCCB rotors as most of you know will die an expensive death when vigorously tracked more than 10-15 times.

The Spyder system (calipers/braided lines/rotors) was installed in December and so far with street driving has been rock solid. The GT3RS system development has dragged on interminably but as a stop-gap MovIt provided me with a set of GenII CSC rotors to expiriment with and hammer on.

I installed the MovIt rotors on the 2RS and this week was able to put two track days on them and I showed no mercy when braking. Compared to OE PCCB, the pedal was rock solid even under the most severe braking conditions (repeated high speed threshold braking). Modulation with the MovIt's was much improved vs the PCCB.

The nice thing is they bite well when cold or hot. P50 Greens are dangerous to run on the street and take 2-3 laps to warm up and bite well. OE P40's on a OE system are a bit hard to modulate when cold and I can make them fade a bit when very hot.

The MovIt CSC's had consistent bite hot or cold.

While two days is not much, it was a 620hp car and the MovIt's so far look look pristine. Weight difference vs PCCB is .7lb greater per rotor, or + 2.79 lbs for all four. A weight trade-off I am more than happy to make for rotors that have a claimed lifetime of essentially forever.

I will update this thread as my testing progresses. So far, I am very happy with them. In the USA MovIt brakes are distributed by Tom Frederico email:Tom@TFEnt.com

As I understand it, rotor replacements are available now but the full system for GT3 is still in development. Billet calipers will eliminate the bevel pad wear we all know an hate and also result in a firmer pedal under severe conditions.

MovIt main website: http://www.movitbrakes.com/en/produkte/keramikbremsen/

http://www.gt2gt3cup.org/picture.php...&pictureid=240

http://www.gt2gt3cup.org/picture.php...&pictureid=241

http://www.gt2gt3cup.org/picture.php...&pictureid=242

http://www.gt2gt3cup.org/picture.php...&pictureid=243

http://www.gt2gt3cup.org/picture.php...&pictureid=237

Re: MovIt Carbon Silicon Carbide Rotors as PCCB Replacement?
 

Subscribed! Thanks for the write up.

What type of pad are you running?

Re: MovIt Carbon Silicon Carbide Rotors as PCCB Replacement?
 

+1 Please keep posting!!

Thank you so much for being the tester.

Bman, nice meeting you at VIR!

The oem steel rotors are $550.00 front and $500.00 rear. Lasting 20 days max.
Pagid pads are $750.00. Lasting 10 days max.

I will try some diffrent pads/steel in the meanwhile and start a seperate thread to accurately compare running cost VS quality of brake feel. Even some crazy expensive brake pads from Endless if I can get them.

PCCB users have different math and it will pay off even sooner for them, but I am very interested as well and as you keep posting we will learn how quickly the Movit brake system will pay off in saved pads and rotors, as well as the labour saved.

Re: MovIt Carbon Silicon Carbide Rotors as PCCB Replacement?
 

When using just OE replacement rotors (not calipers or oversize kits) then MovIt suggests the OE P40 pads. I will do a tear down tomorrow and will update the thread with pad wear characteristics.

You got it Peter. Yes, the value proposition for the MovIt system involves some big number$ so is a bit of a challenge to wrap your head around, but boils down to:

Lifetime rotors, or even transfer to your next car (!).
Reduced pad wear (we shall see).
Preserving reduced rotating mass/lowered unsprung weight.
When billet caliper is installed no more pad flipping/beveled pads (we shall see).
Greatly improved pedal feel, increased ability to modulate.

Re: MovIt Carbon Silicon Carbide Rotors as PCCB Replacement?
 

Hopefully the pads last better too. No more rotors! A thou here, a thou there and pretty soon you're talking real money ;-)

Re: MovIt Carbon Silicon Carbide Rotors as PCCB Replacement?
 

subscribed - you are my test bed
thank you for sticking your neck out and posting about it

Re: MovIt Carbon Silicon Carbide Rotors as PCCB Replacement?
 

I am on board with this too, as I was just getting ready to purchase the OEM steel replacements for my 3RS.

Cant wait to hear more.

Re: MovIt Carbon Silicon Carbide Rotors as PCCB Replacement?
 

I swapped the rotors and pads from the 2RS to the 3RS today. Front pads are wearing beveled on leading edge but I expected that as MovIt has not yet supplied me with the calipers which should eliminate this.

Rear pads looked really good, no bevel and even wear side to side which does surprise me as I know PSM was working a lot.

The rotors looked pristine and like new. The original crosshatch pattern is still on them, and trust me when I tell you I hammered them with no mercy.

Pads, the OE P40's, looked about as always. So my initial impression of using rotors only, as an OE replacement, in the stock sizing, appears as though it might make sense. Three more days to hammer them again on the 3RS at a PCA event Fri/Sat/Sun. Will report back.

http://gt2gt3cup.org/picture.php?alb...&pictureid=267

http://gt2gt3cup.org/picture.php?alb...&pictureid=265

http://gt2gt3cup.org/picture.php?alb...&pictureid=268

Re: MovIt Carbon Silicon Carbide Rotors as PCCB Replacement?
 

It will be interesting to see if the claims made in the PDF prove true. Do these fit the stock GT3 6 piston calipers? If you don't mind me asking, what do these rotors cost per corner?

Re: MovIt Carbon Silicon Carbide Rotors as PCCB Replacement?
 

Hi Landjet- I agree as to validity of the claims and I will update this thread as real -life experience plays out. So far...so good. My direct replacement rotor solution only required me to swap out the hats which is tedious but not hard. I think MovIt offers a hat and rotor solution but of course you have to pay for that.

So far the difference in modulation and pedal feel are all for the good. More data on wear next week :-)(

I have to refer any pricing questions to your local distributor (Tom Frederico in USA).

Re: MovIt Carbon Silicon Carbide Rotors as PCCB Replacement?
 

So far front pad wear appears same as always, rear pad wear is much improved. But this is only with rotor change and not calipers and MovIt specific pads.

You are welcome! Lol...let me tell you my neck has some gashes on it! Whew.

Stay tuned...

Re: MovIt Carbon Silicon Carbide Rotors as PCCB Replacement?
 

So, do they make the rotors just for the front that we could plop on the car witrh the staal calipers?

Re: MovIt Carbon Silicon Carbide Rotors as PCCB Replacement?
 

Can I assume these fit the 997 GT2 also?

Re: MovIt Carbon Silicon Carbide Rotors as PCCB Replacement?
 

I like where u are going

Endless makes pccb specific pads, wonder if they work with this

Re: MovIt Carbon Silicon Carbide Rotors as PCCB Replacement?
 

In the USA, Tom Frederico would be able to best advise on specific fitment but I know of no reason it wouldn't work?

Forewarned! A "lifetime" rotor is not cheap! And MovIt is right now taking forever to fill orders. Be prepared for a long delay and be happily surprised if not.

Re: MovIt Carbon Silicon Carbide Rotors as PCCB Replacement?
 

Five hard track day follow-up. I set the second fastest time at the GG PCA TT with these rotors on the car. Much of the original honing marks still remain on the rotors. No obvious sign of wear.

LF

http://www.gt2gt3cup.org/picture.php...&pictureid=296

LR

http://www.gt2gt3cup.org/picture.php...&pictureid=295

RR

http://www.gt2gt3cup.org/picture.php...&pictureid=294

Re: MovIt Carbon Silicon Carbide Rotors as PCCB Replacement?
 

I spoke with Tom yesterday. What a great guy and the statistics that he has for the long lasting performance of the rotor and pads is just mind blowing.

Re: MovIt Carbon Silicon Carbide Rotors as PCCB Replacement?
 

The holy grail is a long lasting, track usable rotor with good modulation characteristics. The next two months will tell the tale and so far so good. These seem tough as nails.

Can't wait to install the full kit with the billet calipers- MovIt are you reading this?? :-((

Re: MovIt Carbon Silicon Carbide Rotors as PCCB Replacement?
 

Wow, that's impressive for 5 days of wear.

Besides the pallet of tightly wrapped $100.00 bills they want for them, do you think they can be driven (COLD!!) on the street?
It would suck to drive over the mail man because you can't stop the car driving down the driveway..

Re: MovIt Carbon Silicon Carbide Rotors as PCCB Replacement?
 

Haha :D

Unlike driving on the street with P50 Greens these use the P40 pad so cold and or wet stopping is no different from hot.

Your question is spot on and the good news is they work just fine when cold.

Re: MovIt Carbon Silicon Carbide Rotors as PCCB Replacement?
 

Cool :thumbup: How are the pads lasting? Same as before still?

Re: MovIt Carbon Silicon Carbide Rotors as PCCB Replacement?
 

Yes, pretty much. I am getting 5 hard track days on fronts and rears with PSM on all the time.

As caliper is OE, still getting beveled fronts and rears but to a lesser extent.

Re: MovIt Carbon Silicon Carbide Rotors as PCCB Replacement?
 

Beveling 100% due to calipers then, I assume.

Re: MovIt Carbon Silicon Carbide Rotors as PCCB Replacement?
 

Tracker- sorry to be a pain, but are these direct OE sized replacements for both front/rear? Can you PM me the MSRP when you get the chance, I am quite interested in them.

Re: MovIt Carbon Silicon Carbide Rotors as PCCB Replacement?
 

According to Tom: once one is able to use MovIt pads there is a considerable increase in pad lifespan. 2 years of 20 days/year tracking currently being seen by a customer. Could be 3 years with light track use. And never needing to switch pads between track and street. This is sounding more and more interesting.

Re: MovIt Carbon Silicon Carbide Rotors as PCCB Replacement?
 

MovIt brake update: Things have taken a turn for the worse with delays in the supply of another kit, lack of follow-through on parts and other severe "miscommunications" (I am trying to say it nicely) and I currently CANNOT recommend anyone to purchase any MovIt parts. Email or IM me for current situation if you are thinking of giving them any business.

Re: MovIt Carbon Silicon Carbide Rotors as PCCB Replacement?
 

Peter, I am sorry things are turning for the worse. Be patient, it may turn back around again; well at least I sincerely hope so.

Re: MovIt Carbon Silicon Carbide Rotors as PCCB Replacement?
 

Ok- update. MovIt and I patched things up. They addressed my issues and we are moving forward again in positive fashion and I give them full credit for being willing to step-up and address the challenges we had.

I will post a full review in a few more weeks but I can say the direct, drop-in replacement MovIt Carbon/Silicon/Carbide rotors have proven durable and a greatly superior to the OE PCCB rotors. After 15 track days they show no obvious wear and pedal modulation remains much better compared to PCCB. Furthermore pedal feel remains consistent throughout a full track session.

At this point it does seem as though this is the "Holy Grail" of rotors: non-wearing, excellent pedal feel and modulation. A lifetime rotor.

A full kit is still in progress, delays are due to testing, redesign and refinement of the kit. But the OE sized replacement rotors are showing to be bulletproof under very heavy use. I will be testing an oversized, 396mm kit as well within the next few weeks and will of course report on that when I have some experience.

Re: MovIt Carbon Silicon Carbide Rotors as PCCB Replacement?
 

That's great. Tom sure seemed very accommodating. I just cant afford the price. I am converting to steel oem and using the pagid yellow.

Re: MovIt Carbon Silicon Carbide Rotors as PCCB Replacement?
 

I am glad MovIt is cooperating, I hope the experiment keeps its positive spin.

Re: MovIt Carbon Silicon Carbide Rotors as PCCB Replacement?
 

I've been driving a Cayman R with PCCB for a week and I can't believe how much bite and consistent modulation those brakes provide. Too bad I'd be afraid to subject them to track use, because of the potential cost of rotors.

Re: MovIt Carbon Silicon Carbide Rotors as PCCB Replacement?
 

MovIt update. Using OE sized carbon/silicon/carbide friction discs only, (not the calipers, not the available oversized rotors) I can report the following based on 15 track days (30-35 hours of race style usage on GT2/3RS :

1. Using a digital caliper there is no measurable wear of the friction disc. None. Zip. Zilch.
2. The original machine marks and crosshatch pattern is still visible on the surface.
3. The surface remains very smooth to the touch.
4. The "phonograph" style grooving is visible to the eye but not felt by the finger. Cosmetic only.
5. Pad wear time and tapered wear pattern is essentially the same as OE, perhaps a 20% improvement. Still require you to flip after a few track days. No billet calipers (yet) equal a tapered wear pad, just that simple.

Because these friction discs are so bulletproof, you can wait a bit longer than pad friction material being at thickness of backing plate rule of thumb for pad replacement. I am advised the friction disc will not be damaged (!) in the event of backing plate contact but not a game I am willing to play to get "one more session" from a set of pads. At least you are not playing with a $$$$ catastrophe as with the OE PCCB friction discs.

As far as friction disc (rotor) the MovIt Carbon/Silicon/Carbide product does appear to be a truly lifetime solution to worn friction discs (rotors).

I will be installing their new full system including billet calipers for GT3/GT3 fitment in approx 6 weeks as well as a massive, direct-replacement, rotors only, 396mmx40 front rotor and 380mm rear rotor kit (without the MovIt Billet Caliper) and report on those. Based on the superb performance of only an OE sized friction disc, the result should be "monumental".

http://www.gt2gt3cup.org/picture.php...&pictureid=424

http://www.gt2gt3cup.org/picture.php...&pictureid=425

http://www.gt2gt3cup.org/picture.php...&pictureid=426

The markings you see are cosmetic, surface is smooth to the touch.
http://www.gt2gt3cup.org/picture.php...&pictureid=419

http://www.gt2gt3cup.org/picture.php...&pictureid=420

Smooth as a baby's butt!

http://www.gt2gt3cup.org/picture.php...&pictureid=421

That is original honing marks/crosshatch you see there-

http://www.gt2gt3cup.org/picture.php...&pictureid=422

More original honing marks


http://www.gt2gt3cup.org/picture.php...&pictureid=423

Re: MovIt Carbon Silicon Carbide Rotors as PCCB Replacement?
 

Can someone provide a ballpark price for a set? Or is that some kind of secret?

Was this evaluation set provided to you at no cost or reduced cost?

Since the factory PCCB discs seem to hold up OK until 10 or 15 track days, I'd say that the jury is still out on the longevity of these. I will certainly watch closely and hope the claims prove to be true.

I don't understand why a billet caliper would prevent tappered pad wear. Can you provide more info?

Re: MovIt Carbon Silicon Carbide Rotors as PCCB Replacement?
 

Hi Gator Bite- Price is going to vary based on exchange rate (Euro) and options (specific application, friction ring size, w or w/o hats, etc). There are more variables than one might think. The way to get a quote is to contact the USA MovIt rep: Tom@tfent.com. No secrets, I am sure he will be happy to help you (accurately) price a set. I have no financial interest or benefits from any sales he makes.

The pictured discs were provided to me not for evaluation purposes (however I used the opportunity to make that my personal mission ;)) but as a "loaner" set of friction discs because my full system (I paid full price) was much delayed due to a variety of reasons. I thought it was a strong customer service gesture for them to do that. When my full system arrives, then it's my option to return or buy these loaners.

Based on my experience with the now dead PCCB discs (pics somewhere online but I will post them again to this thread) on my Spyder and GT3RS there is no doubt whatsoever in my mind the Movit discs are proving to be light-years ahead in wear characteristics under track use condition.

There are a wide variety of posts, over the years, on RL and 6Speed (easily searchable) regarding the tapered pad wear issue. General consensus is that the caliper is not rigid enough and flexes under track use conditions.

According to MovIt literature:

"MOVIT calipers with its 6-piston BILLET design, have bigger pistons (13 sets of custom designed configurations based on application), longer pads (108 cm²), are BILLET CNC machined from the highest strength 7075 aluminum and are T6 heat treated.

The caliper is much stronger than others and will not loose its strength even under high temperatures like cast calipers. The aluminum which is used in cast calipers (alsi5 or alsi7) has a strength factor of approximately 31,915.4-34,816.8 PSI. With an additional heat treatment this strength can be raised to approximately 42,070.3 PSI. The reason why most manufacturers use heat treated aluminum is simply the price. The material used for each "MOV’IT BILLET-CALIPER" has a strength factor of approximately 79,788.5- 82,689.9 PSI. So, the possibility to expand under growing pressure and heat is totally eliminated. CNC machined calipers need less space than cast calipers that can be used with a bigger disc under the same rim then the cast calipers. The material and the extremely strong and "wide" design of the "MOV’IT BILLET-Calipers" means the pressure to the pad is applied evenly even under extreme pressure, greater then 21,754.5 PSI. The heat is transferred to the maximum possible surface area, the temperature stays lower and the durability of all parts is higher. Cast calipers do not compress the pads evenly to the rotor when they expand under higher pressure or temperature. So, the rotor is not evenly heated and the pads wear faster and unevenly. A loss of the already lower braking force of cast calipers"

I do have a full MovIt system on my Spyder now since December: http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforum...-insanity.html which I paid full price for. After approx 7 hours of tracking, it is proof to me that MovIt offers a high-priced but even more high-value solution to those of us seeking a "lifetime" brake system for which we don't have to buy rotors ever again or flip pads after every 2 track days. There is no noticeable pad wear nor is the paint on the pads even discolored! (pics attached) That performance is hard to argue with.

It won't be a solution for everyone, or even most, as the value proposition can be a challenge to wrap one's head around. But it is there and it is quite compelling for those who have researched the current OE and aftermarket offerings and found them unsatisfying.

Folks who have read me over the years on RL/6Speed/TeamSpeed/RennTeam 2.0, and know me in person are aware I am an early adopter, and experiment with outside the box solutions. And then I post what my experiences are. Some are good, some not so much. To those who are not aware of my background and history might think I am a guerrilla marketer, but the truth is I am a "free-marketer" and a manufacturers greatest advocate or worst enemy. My efforts (100% voluntary and unpaid) on building gt2gt3cup.org are recent proof of that claim :pals:

Your questions are good and appropriate and if I can expand on anything I am happy to do so, just ask! :D

Spyder w/MovIt full system:

http://www.gt2gt3cup.org/picture.php...&pictureid=427

Seven hours of hard track time. No pad discoloration, rotors look new, no noticeable pad wear.

http://www.gt2gt3cup.org/picture.php...&pictureid=428

Re: MovIt Carbon Silicon Carbide Rotors as PCCB Replacement?
 

Good stuff. I don't mean to accuse you of 'guerrilla marketing'. I just want to understand all the dynamics.

I'm not sure I totally buy the whole theory on tapered pad wear. If it were caused by a structural weakness in the caliper and it flexing, wouldn't the pads wear in a curve, less wear in the middle of the pad, more on each end where the caliper is clearly stronger because that's where the front and back are connected?

I would expect tapered wear on any large surface area brake pad that is mounted in a multi piston caliper. On any brake pad, there is going to be a certain amount of torque applied to the pad during braking. What will a motorcycle do if it brakes too hard? It will flip forward because of that torque. That torque is normal.

When we have a multi piston caliper, like the 6 piston units on your car, the pistons can move independently from one another, which allows the torque to turn the pad over time and wear the pad unevenly. Now the best way to compensate for this is to stagger the piston size with smaller pistons close to the leading edge and larger pistons closer to the trailing edge. I know Porsche does this on my 4 piston unit, I'm guessing they do the same on the 6 piston unit. But apparently they haven't staggered the sizes enough.

If the MovIt calipers stagger the pistons differently, this may have an effect on the tapered pad wear.

Re: MovIt Carbon Silicon Carbide Rotors as PCCB Replacement?
 

Well not necessarily. The caliper shape, its metallurgical construct, piston design, all play a significant role in how heat is spread across the caliper and dissipated. Few years ago, Racecar Engineering mag pushed some technical articles from PFC on their NASCAR calipers and how the new Z-rated designs were making noticeable performance differences. I could not locate the article on their web site, but the following thesis is a very close approximation of what PFC was claiming:

http://soar.wichita.edu/dspace/bitst...pdf?sequence=1

I find Pete's adventures in testing "stuff" to satisfy his curiosity quite interesting, I really appreciate you taking the leading on finding and using these rare products Pete, thanks :D

Re: MovIt Carbon Silicon Carbide Rotors as PCCB Replacement?
 

I am only to page 35 of the thesis and look forward to finishing it and fully digesting it this weekend. One thing immediately learned- don't throw away those "useless" metal plates clipped onto back of pads ;) Unless you want to play with overheating your calipers!

Re: MovIt Carbon Silicon Carbide Rotors as PCCB Replacement?
 

Pete, thanks so much for the updates on these rotors. I look forward to your testing and reviews and am lovin this website too. I'd have these MovIt rotors in a heart beat but I'm afraid to even bother the MovIt rep and ask what the price is and if they even make these as a replacment for a 997 Carrera S...same sizing as 996 Turbo.

Re: MovIt Carbon Silicon Carbide Rotors as PCCB Replacement?
 

That is some very interesting stuff! I've been using Ti inserts on the back of my pads from TiSpeed and they really do work at keeping the heat out of my stock calipers.

Re: MovIt Carbon Silicon Carbide Rotors as PCCB Replacement?
 

FWIW, an observation on pad tapering - when I use Pagid RS29s on my steel brake GT3.1, they will taper every time. I once switched to Pagid Blacks, which destroyed the stock rotors (rings of Saturn big time) but no taper wear at all. I have no idea why this should be.