Re: How To Brake?
 

VIR was awesome. Mercedes/Audi/BMW clubs had the Marque Madness event, They were very kind to accept me for Friday, and weather was perfect. They really put out a great event, there were may be 45-50 cars, so we got a lot of track time, nearly 3 hours.

More importantly, I got to test a lot of what has been talked about in this thread. One distintictive conclusion I reached is my biggest problem is not how apply the brakes, but how I release them. I worked on that specifically, to release the brakes without upsetting the balance of the car, and I think during my 4th and 5th sessions, I could consistently do so at every corner. I am not sure if I was any faster, but the car and I were cooperating much better :)

Re: How To Brake?
 

I thought you were kidding about heading to VIR yesterday. You just went down for the day? You've got a problem! :-8

What change did you make in the release? Earlier? Which corners in particular?

Also, did you try different lines and braking thru T3?

Re: How To Brake?
 

Hey, if I could make a living from any kind of driving instruction I would! :p

Re: How To Brake?
 

I never kid about VIR, and no doubt I have a (or more) problem(s) :ROFL!:

Actually I was releasing a tiny bit later, but gentler, especially in T3, T4 and T10. I tried your line in T3, which worked better in entry, the car was more stable and controlling the brake pressure was easier as I broke slightly earlier with less pressure and I could more consistently take the turn. The preliminary result of doing so is... I am not sure what the word is frankly; I was significantly slower in entry, but slightly faster past the apex. The significance of this is that the conditions were much less favorable than in March or May; it was between 100-105 deg heat with very high humidity, the track was very greasy in many corners, all corners generally lacked grip, top speeds were also lower by 3-7 mph. Even so, my best was 2:11.7 in the morning, when it was about 92-95 with moderate to high humidity.

There is much more to look at in the data before any real results can be drawn, but I love that stuff and I have quite a bit of data to play with :D

I might put my notes in another thread as I look at data.

Re: How To Brake?
 

When I hired Chris Hall for coaching at Sebring he told me after a few laps with me that I'm the last of the late brakers...he could not believe how deep I got the Carrera into the brake zone. He said this is not the way to go fast and take car of equipment. Slamming on the brake as late as possible on every turn is wrong and Chris drove my car and proved it. Also there are some turn were you get off the brake early and balance the car and sail it into the turn and then get on the throttle. My whole lesson was about brake release and modulating after he got me to brake slightly earlier and softer. I can't wait for some more lesson later this year.

Re: How To Brake?
 

I certainly do agree with Chris, not that my word counts for anything against his :), but what is the most important thing is the confidence of the driver and the feel s/he has. Slamming the brakes at the very last possible moment never felt like a solution to me, at least with street cars; the situation may be different with race cars with heavy aero.

Re: How To Brake?
 

So last weekend I tried to shake off the rust and go racing at Mid Ohio.

The driving part was fine. Unfortunately the chassis and engine tuning side of it was a complete disaster. Things started to click inside my head about 24 hours AFTER the weekend...

As the saying goes, there's a race happening, I'm just not in it.

http://contour.com/stories/wka-mid-ohio-tag-2-2011

The race line is still appropriate. If you watch and listen closely in the video of the lap, you will be able to tell the chassis is binding up in the rear on track out from the apex, putting me 30 ft down on the competition every lap in the tighter corners, and that the kart probably has too much Ackerman causing the turn in looseness.

Re: How To Brake?
 

It is pretty amazing to see this level of action this close to the ground. Setting up a kart is really complex I think, although I have NO experience with it, but without any springs/shocks, it is all geometry and probably millimeters of adjustments.

Re: How To Brake?
 

Very interesting discussion.

My personal answer is that it depends on what the purpose is, of the session and lap. For all-out qualifying, trying to get every last hundredth (I just had a race weekend where top three of us were within 23 thousanths of a second in qualifying), then going from full throttle to full brakes is quickest, IF 1) you don't end up over-slowing and killing your mid-corner and thus exit speed, as is VERY often the case when using max brakes, and 2) you don't lock up your brakes (on a non-ABS car).

On a race pace, I'm usually (but not always) a little less aggressive in braking zones, I brake a little earlier and a little less hard, to reduce chance of lockup and give more room to increase braking if needed to make the corner. Depends of course on the competitive situation, am I chasing someone or forced to defend, or am I in a 'comfortable' position where keeping up a pace is all that's needed to prevent a position change.

The over-braking is what most people end up doing if they're trying to 'banzai' the braking zone, so that's why it ends up being better not to apply the brakes too hard - it lets them modulate their overall speed easier. At full near-lockup braking, any GT/Cup car has such amazing brakes that the speed comes off at a very prodigous pace, and it's very difficult to stop braking at the right point. Also, if you're aggressively braking, and you brake even a little too early, you need to reduce the braking forces a fair bit later in the braking zone to prevent over-slowing. All of this is much easier to control at lower braking levels, which I believe is why it's often faster (and certainly safer) to brake less. However, if you're getting off the brakes at the right time, and you're not locking up, simple physics says you want to be on the gas as long as possible, then on the brakes as late and hard as possible, to maximize your speed over every foot of the course. Not very easy for us mere mortals to do, and the additional time gained by late/hard braking is usually overwhelmed by the time lost in having too low a mid-corner and thus corner exit speed, killing speed all the way to the next braking zone.

I've learned a lot about braking while going from an ABS car (996 Cup) to a non-ABS car (997 Cup), with manual bias control. I've had to adjust my braking to trail-brake less and get more braking done before turnin, or I was regularly locking up the inside front wheel late into the corner. This actually caused me to change my lines somewhat.

In the wet (just came off a weekend with 5 wet sessions), I'm of course easier on the brake application, as I'm always sensing for traction, including under braking. Downshifting is less aggressive also (lower in the rpm range) or it'll cause rear lockup (in both 996 and 997 I use downshifting/engine braking to augment the car's rear braking).

Many drivers seem to want to maximize their braking, and brake as hard and late as possible. If they have data or video, I often see much more time to be gained in better controlling getting OFF the brake, and rolling through the corner as quickly as possible, and back onto the throttle as early as possible, minimizing time through the corner and all the way down the next straight. There's often a full half-second or more available there from a single corner, versus perhaps a tenth by braking a little harder and later. So yet another reason many instructors/coaches want you to concentrate on areas other than braking as hard as possible.

Final thought - for DE drivers (I instructed for many years but haven't lately), the goal is to get drivers safely around the track, on a good line, slowly increasing their speed as they approach the limits of their cars and their own abilities. It's way to easy to exceed the abilities of driver OR car by nailing the brakes hard, and lots of bad things can happen, as the start of a braking zone after a long straight is the fastest the car is going. I strongly believe (both in DE and in racing) in gently approaching limits from underneath them, and I've too often seen bad things happen in DE from things like mid-corner throttle lift from someone carrying more speed than they're comfortable with, or seeing something ahead that they're not comfortable with, even though their car can handle their current cornering speed.

Next topic: pinching exits, why do I see SO many drivers keep full (or nearly full) steering input well after apex, while applying full throttle, and not unwinding the wheel and going all the way to trackout? Have seen so many incidents... Another topic though :-)

Re: How To Brake?
 

What can I say, an excellent first post; welcome to the community Jim.

I certainly agree that the physics of vehicle dynamics dictate maximum braking for the shortest period of time and being on throttle for the longest periods is the fastest possible way around any circuit. The theory goes out the door when the human starts making the decisions; we are not consistent and most often not rational either.

What I find interesting and something that I would not have thought about is how you had to change your braking to use less trailing with a non-ABS car. It does make sense, I just would not have thought that might be one of the outcomes.

I have been watching F1 since 9-yrs old, that's over 30 yrs btw, and what grabs my attention the most is how seldom those drivers brake on a straight line. Granted they have significant help from their aero, but being on such balance and sensitivity is something to be admired I think.

I like your next topic as well, I hope you do start the thread ;)

Re: How To Brake?
 

Thanks! Re F1 drivers, certainly they need to brake in non-straight lines, esp. at say Valencia today where they're almost always in a corner.

Now I think I understand better why they're constantly adjusting brake bias - moving bias rearward will let them trailbrake deeper into a corner before locking up. Too far rear though and esp. earlier in the braking zone you might lock up the rears, that's much worse. So at least for mortals like me, I err on the side of front brake bias, better to have front lockup and understeer through a corner entry, than to have the back step out when under any side loading (esp. entering a high or medium speed corner) and swapping ends (spin at best, into something hard at worst). Though if I'm never getting any lockup on the data (easy to see from logging of the four wheel speeds), then I'm just not braking hard enough, I do want to see a touch of lockup at max braking, just minimal (one wheel slowing a little, never full lock) and fairly even front to rear :-)

I did expect to take some time adjusting to non-ABS, I didn't expect to have to change lines etc. either. I honestly didn't realize (except now in retrospect) how late into corners I'd been trail-braking, and how often the ABS in my 996 must have been keeping the inside front wheel rolling.

So I definitely pay attention to braking, but as with the 996, most of the time I make up when improving lap times is in carrying more speed through the corner (ie. getting off the brake earlier), and getting on the gas earlier.

Re: How To Brake?
 

The setup is magnified by the type of racing- road racing a kart is really a study on not only driving ability but also setup- both are required to be competitive. What's really important in road racing is- you can't win the race in the first corner but you certainly can lose it there. The races are 30-45 minutes long and if the track is bumpy you'll get worn out quick.

If you watch the video closely you'll see that on the back straight I peak over 90 mph (92 to be exact) according to the GPS, and take most turns about 70mph. Some people would say that karts don't have to slow down much for turns, but the inverse is true too- since everyone is trying to slow down the least (because we all want to win) it's a dogfight. To put it into perspective, laptimes in my situp class should be around 1.38.xx at Mid Ohio. That's a kart with a water cooled 125cc two stroke, no gearbox, disc brakes in the front and rear. Sit up Shifters are about 7 seconds faster, laydown shifters even more so.

There's no ABS, no traction control, no power steering. If we have Tillotson carbs we can tune the needles on the fly, if it's a Keihin/Mikuni/d'Ellorto then we have to watch the weather station like a hawk and put the right jets/needles/tubes in. We check chassis alignment three or four times a day, and change alignment/setup throughout the day to keep up with the track conditions.

Brake bias is adjustable on the fly- however, i don't know too many people who use it unless there's something quite a bit wrong. Karts are rear biased- rear locks up before fronts, because the rear tires are bigger (bigger contact patch), weight is rear biased, and the fronts are useless if they lock up first (neither brake nor directional control). Because the bias is rearward, you learn to really carry speed through the turns- threshold braking while turning marginalizes the brake AND turning ability, probably either sending you off spinning or over slowing the turn- basically , if you can threshold brake into the turn you're not going fast enough. At least, that's how it works in karts.

In cars it's a different story because there are a lot of engineered aids- brake bias is computer controlled... ABS, TC and SC intervene with most "optimistic" input... Steering rack ratios are overly slow requiring a lot of input... And engines are so tractable that you are rarely out of the power band (unless you're really goofing up) which covers up a lot of mistakes. Basically, modern cars are much easier to drive fast on tracks than cars from even as recent as 10 years ago.

Re: How To Brake?
 

I think you did catch my big mistake in my sentence; I meant "I have NO experience" in setting up karts :)

Your explanation on kart setup is precisely what is so difficult in driving karts competitively IMHO. Thankfully, it is a smaller vehicle and getting on a table/jacks is easier to make setup changes, but you really need to understand the geometric options, which are finite of course. At the same time, not having the help of shock/spring settings makes the whole thing even more difficult.

Do you use A/R bars on karts?

And driving... OMG, I cannot imagine working within a window of 20 mph; each 1 mph, or even 0.5 mph, must count. So, if you brake 5 ft too early or too late, you can either loose a spot or race, or worse, find yourself moving the lawn. Amazing.

Re: How To Brake?
 

No big deal. Everyone has to learn from somewhere. There are lots of people far more experienced than me. I've only been racing karts for about 7 years.

Kart setup is not easy.

First and foremost is seat position. That determines pretty much everything (because the biggest lump on the kart is the driver).

Front end setup can be separated into different ways- ride height, stiffness, and alignment. Ride height determines front end jacking, stiffness can be adjusted with a removable bar between the front yokes, and alignment determines camber, castor and toe. There is also track width, hub stiffness, wheel width and steering Ackerman to consider.

Rear end setup is determined by ride height (axle height on most karts are adjustable), axle stiffness, where and which bearings are "locked in", hub stiffness, wheel size and stiffness, and track width. There is also a removable bar in the back that determines chassis twist.

Then there's the kart chassis midsection which determines transient response from front to rear- most chassis' have a removable fourth rail that goes from the midsection to the back, and the front tray can be tightened/loosened according to what the needs are. Not to mention seat stays (adding, removing, loosening, tightening)...

Those are the basics... if you can get a handle on those you're doing better than me!

There are no antiroll bars on karts. Antiroll bars are transient torsion springs that connect the left and right suspension- they are a tuning aid and ideally should be as soft as possible if not disconnected (I know that is a controversial statement), corner spring rate and suspension geometry should determine roll. On my GT2 I have to use them as a bandaid for a conservative setup- the car pushes everywhere. With a more aggressive setup coming (springs, shocks, alignment) I hope to be able to back off the bar settings to get more bump compliance (curb crashing).

For karts you should think of the entire chassis as a giant spring, and compliance for what you want it to do is managed on a micro and macro level. If you get a good handle on how to tune a kart chassis, tuning a car is not much more difficult. Ultimately you need to think about how to work on the end that needs improvement and not take away from the one that works.

Oh yeah! That's what makes it fun (or in my case that weekend, a lesson in futility). Losing 30 ft every tight corner means just keeping up is a W in my book. I'm planning on going to Grattan in a few weeks, let's hope it's better. Check out Grattan if you want to see a crazy track!

edit-

Actually, I was thinking about the "20mph window"... it's actually less than that. Top speed is a given- if you can't keep up you're out to lunch. So the relative operating window is actually your cornering speed- entry, apex and exit speeds. That is probably a much smaller window- 2 to 3 mph at most if you're competitive. It's the same in most motorsports- relative speed differences usually determine the outcome.

Re: How To Brake?
 

Well, this has been a great schooling for me, and I truly appreciate it. It is fascinating to me, chassis setup that is. I used to be involved with it in stage rally cars, which I thought was difficult, but karts are much more difficult based on the details you so graciously provided. We basically played with shock setup (travel/bump/rebound), ride height, springs, wheels/tires and roll bars; other than that, we left it alone.

Thank you for the details Nick :pals:

Re: How To Brake?
 

I am surprised how often I see this and it's scary! I can understand a beginner-intermediate driver doing it but I've seen it too often with intermediate-advanced drivers. Moreover, I have found a resistance to change when you point it out. I've found myself practically begging drivers to "OPEN THE WHEEL", lap after lap. And often the response is "WHY?"....You really get concerned when this happens because you worry the driver has limited feel/sense of what's going on.

I think it is applicable to this braking discussion because often it's a symptom caused by over braking and early release of the brake. The driver isn't rolling into a corner, so they're on the throttle too early.

Re: How To Brake?
 

I also see a lot of exit pinching. What I've noticed as a beginner's symptom is usually apexing too early. Many overly enthusiastic novice drivers begin their turn in too soon. You rarely see this problem with a late apex turn in- those drivers usually have too little speed into the turn and also too much space on track out from the apex.
The other problem I see with many drivers is not getting the wheel straight early enough- or taking too much time turning.
Another symptom is the "threshold to the apex" braker who overestimates his/her traction circle, usually missing the apex completely and thus also flying off the outside of the track exit.
When I instructed (and am about to start for the Chicago region PCA soon) I used to tell students to literally try to hit every cone on the track. I would estimate how much they were off, and encourage them to really aim for the cones on the track, thus demonstrating how much they were pinching their turn in and track outs by not using the entire track.
Teaching students how to read a track is the best lesson for them.

Re: How To Brake?
 

Here's how I (used to when I instructed) explain releasing the wheel on exit.

I explain that there is always a limited amount of traction available, and the goal in a corner is to always use all of the traction available. So you brake fully, but have to start releasing the brake as you turn in, to 'release' traction so that you can start using it to turn. When you're at apex at max turnin, you can't be on the brake or throttle as you're using all your traction to turn.

When you want to start accelerating from the apex to track out, you need to 'release' traction to make it available for acceleration, and you have to do this by releasing the wheel as you slowly apply the throttle. By the time you're on full throttle at trackout, you have to have fully released the wheel, or you won't have sufficient traction!

I also do a visualization exercise - think of a string tied between your toe and the steering wheel. When you're on full braking, string is all the way tight from the bottom of the wheel to your toe. As you turn, turning the wheel will lift your toe on the brake. As you press the accelerator after exit, think of it pulling the outside of the steering wheel back down, so that you have to accelerate.

I think that many novice and intermediate drivers are scared of getting too close to the trackout, as they're worried about getting onto (or over) the exit curbing. After all, their instructors have told them numerous times about bad things happening when they drop a wheel off the outside of a curb on exit. So in response they're staying away from track out, but their mechanism for doing so isn't doing a trackout to a lesser point, it's to keep full steering input in while exiting the corner, which at best delays their throttle input until they're pointed straight (killing their corner exit speed), or at worst adding throttle with full input, potentially causing spins or worse (exiting track when overcorrecting after attempting to catch a spin for example).

Jim

Re: How To Brake?
 

Fatih, why would you think that?

Re: How To Brake?
 

Hmmm, seemingly a simple question, but this one really made me think Larry :) Am I making an assumption that may not be correct?

Fastest way through a circuit is, or should be, shortest distance while having the longest time periods on the throttle, which means shortest time on brakes, which requires maximum braking needed, no more, for the car to go through the corners. What am I missing?

Re: How To Brake?
 

To me, the fastest way around a circuit is the compromise between covering the least amount of real estate while turning the steering wheel the least. if you can accomplish that, then the very fastest way through the turns, will be self-evident. this will set you up to give you the longest possible time on the throttle in the straights.

Re: How To Brake?
 

Momentum. The fastest way through a circuit is with the highest average speed. If I can brake longer & more gently to allow my car to have better balance and therefore more lateral grip, I can keep my overall speed higher, resulting in a faster corner and ultimately a faster lap. There are some corners where this technique yields higher mph at every point in the corner segment. There are other turns where it may not. The skill is in knowing the requirements of each corner, not applying a blanket driving style across the board. That is why we coach using data; to figure this out.

Re: How To Brake?
 

Hmm... kind of a loaded question...

I touched upon this at rennlist- http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforum...ds-help-2.html

But the issue isn't even as simple as keeping momentum up.

As a driver's experience progresses, car setup changes. A beginner will probably prefer a tighter car- one that pushes. That way the worst possible thing he can do is just push off the track if he holds the throttle too long. As the driver gets better with actually controlling the car, the setup will get looser, and become more pointy. How the car is driven changes.

In general, as the movie quote goes, loose is fast. But just because loose is fast doesn't mean everyone can drive such a setup. A tight car won't want to "dance" but a loose car will quickly tell you you're not in charge if you're not on top of it.

If you're really intent of improving as a driver, making setup changes throughout the day will really help you understand chassis dynamics. Get outside your comfort zone, but don't drive beyond your ability. In general, when I see someone off the track or looping it, I think- driving beyond ability.

EDIT-

I attached a pic of me at Road America, T5. You can see the cone on the gator strip, and my tires within 3 feet (probably less) of that edge. In addition, you can see by the way my car's weight is jacked to the rear right corner that I am accelerating through the corner- all braking finished way beforehand. That is what they mean when they say "slow in, fast out."

Re: How To Brake?
 

This is probably getting off-topic, and maybe worthy of another thread, but I see plenty of people looping it and going off-track due to poor technique and lack of car feel. It's not that they are being too aggressive as much as how they are driving causes the car to go from 8/10ths to 11/10ths instantly, and beyond their ability to recognize it. I am firmly convinced that barring an improperly setup car, there is no such thing as a snap-spin that "just happened". The situations that can result in that type of car behavior are predictable and recognizable. Then again, maybe that is precisely what is defined as "driving beyond ones ability".

Re: How To Brake?
 

Well, I think part of the problem is how HPDE teaches people how to brake- usually an A/X brake zone exercise. That does nothing to actually promote feel of the braking, although it teaches the student that they have powerful brakes. If anything it teaches students they can be hamfisted in their input.

Skill requires sensitivity. If you can't sense it how can you react to it? I had a related issue with a friend recently- he insisted on turning up the radio in the car, and I kept telling him I couldn't drive the car properly without hearing the engine (manual trans). He doesn't drive stick. Can you see the problem- we can't relate because our POV is so different- and that's part of the problem with a lot of beginners- they want to go fast on a track, without the associated learning and experience. As for my friend, I told him he needs to stick to his Lexus... :)

Re: How To Brake?
 

Saying that the fastest way around a course is the highest average speed is a bit of a tautology - average speed is of course course distance divided by time, the shorter the time the higher the speed. Course distance is (relatively) fixed.

Any of these fine suggestions above are rules of thumb, but are never perfectly correct. The fastest way around a course depends on a lot of variables, and is extremely car-dependent, as well as course dependent.

The best line through a particular corner very much depends on what's after the corner. If there's a long straight, then the best line will likely have a very late apex so that you can get on full throttle as quickly as possible. But if there's another corner immediately thereafter turning the same direction, you might do a very early apex to be able to get you to the outside edge of the track as quickly as possible to set up for the following corner, which might be more important.

Then there are corners with a broad range of lines, turn 7 at the (repaved) Portland International Raceway is an example, it's 6 or 8 cars wide, but leads onto a the long back straight. Sure you want a late apex in order to maximize exit speed onto the straight, but it's SO wide on entry that I see many people enter too wide, adding material track distance at the slowest corner on the course, adding time that they don't need to add as it's not actually improving their exit speed. Also, as with many corners, the line through there is very different on a momentum car (944 or Spec Miata) than in a car with significant power, as you normally need a later apex in a higher-powered car so that you can be on full throttle without rear tires getting loose (ie. you have less available grip for lateral acceleration). With a lower powered car, there's less traction required for acceleration on full throttle, and thus more available for lateral grip (turning), so you can apex earlier and continue turning but still have full throttle through the exit.


And of course, on almost any corner a 911 wants a later apex than a Vette with equivalent power, because of the rearward weight bias, and a late turnin works because trail braking allows you to rotate that big pendulum behind you, whereas a car with 50/50 weight distribution won't react to trailbraking the same way.

I completely agree with Nick on sensitivity. It's one reason I've been having braking problems with the new Cup - the brakes are rock-hard, like pushing against a brick wall, and have very little travel, and virtually zero feedback through the pedal. I'm basically having to calibrate how hard my quads are pushing the pedal, rather than feeling the pedal travel through the side of my foot through my driving shoes, like in the 996 that has a softer pedal and much more pdeal travel during braking. I'm developing the feel, but I'm not fully there yet (or I wouldn't have spun under braking twice in my last race weekend :-))

I like to drive with my bottom seat cushion removed, as it gives me better feel of the car - literally improving the feedback through the seat of my pants. The biggest difference in being able to sense yaw (esp. rear of the car moving out) as quickly as possible. With hard engine and tranny mounts, there's enough engine & tranny noise in the car (plus I have earpieces in) that it's difficult to hear the tires, which are a ton easier to hear in a street car.

I also have a seat with very high side (thigh) bolsters, in a seat that most people would probably consider to be one size too small, but I like to have zero movement in the seat so that I can feel the car as much as possible. I like to think it's one reason I'm much better in a real car than in video games. As Nick says above, loose is fast, I definitely prefer a car a little on the loose side, but it requires high sensitivity (but it's SOOO fun when it's working!). I spin fairly often in video games because I can't sense the yaw movement of rear getting loose, in a game the only way to sense yaw is through the front windshield, but that's definitely not how I sense it in a real car. Or so I like to think :-)

I have full Motec data in my cars, and spend a very bit of time analyzing it, to see exactly what works and what doesn't. Often it's counter-intuitive. I've seen many times where I've changed a line to make up .3 sec on corner entry, only to lose .5 second through to the next corner. I've also seen the other way, lost .3 sec on corner entry, and made up .5 second along the next straight. Data is very helpful, but it takes some practice to figure out how to use it properly, and to actually help yourself rather than confuse yourself with so much information.

I find video even more useful, I will never pass up an opportunity to have someone look at my video and make comments. I've had many pros and fellow competitors (most helpful if they're in a different class so not directly competitive :-)) willing to look at video of a lap and make comments. Usually it works, occasionally it doesn't - I had one pro insist that I was taking a particular corner in too short a gear (I should roll through in 3rd rather than downshift to 2nd). I must have done a dozen laps in my next session, and it never felt right. My data showed that I was losing launch speed out of the corner every single time, and lost more time on the next straight than I gained. It was probably gearing/grip difference (I was in the 996 and he had been in a 2010 Cup, which has both slightly different gearing, as well as quite a bit more mechanical grip esp. in the back), but could have been me trying his gearing advice, on perhaps the wrong line.

Re: How To Brake?
 

I've also used the "string theory" with students to good effect, but I quite like your phrasing of "releasing traction." It's a good image that gets the point across really well." I'll make sure to use that in the future!

As to your last point, I think most of us here on this forum are quite experienced and in some cases experts. So it's easy to forget that a novice often has no idea where his car is going to wind up on the exit of a turn. So it's no wonder they are nervous about going off the track and try to pinch it a bit. But I also think a lot of novices just go too fast for their skill because they are exited to go fast on a track.

I think the best advice an instructor ever gave me was that if you start making mistakes, just slow down to where you are making clean laps. Only then start to speed up - slowly. Repeat as necessary. By the end of the day you will be going much faster than if you just keep pushing and making mistakes. I still use that for my self.

-Christian

Re: How To Brake?
 

+1. So often I have to back up even an intermediate student. Somehow their previous instructors just let them go faster mistakes and all.

Different brake points, turn in, missing apexes, wrong gears prevents getting in a rythm and increases potential for spins or worse.

I make them back up to 7/10 (Their 7/10th) and tell them I want carbon copies of every lap after I take out their worst no-no's. I give them small adjustments that should not disturb the rythm. If they can do it, they already carry much more speed and lower laptimes then when they where going ragid 10/10th.

I am just after a rythm (Smaller mistakes and all), if they can do lap after lap without forgetting what to do you can go and continue to work on improving their driving.

Re: How To Brake?
 

I recently applied this at Watkins Glen. During my last visit there I had some pretty fast laps, but my consistency left something to be desired. This time I consciously broke earlier and found my consistency in the turns went way up. Then I could push a little deeper, a little faster per lap. My times were good. Not as good as last time, but more consistent. That's a win to me. With practice I should get the 1 or 2 seconds back and be consistent.

Re: How To Brake?
 

Not sure how I managed to not read this thread since it's inception. My loss, that's for sure. Pure gold. Thanks to all for the superb comments.

1. Balance
2. Sensitivity
3. Work up to the limits of the car incrementally
4. Comparing video and data with my track pals

Things that have come to mean a lot to me as I have pushed harder and gotten faster. I very rarely have an off (once a year on average) and very rarely scare myself while lap times decrease and are more consistent almost every single time I visit the same track. Must be some validity to that formula?

Braking technique in my world: no one size fits all, it is different for every corner for every track I run. But as a generality I have really been striving for a smoooooth release. For me, easing that transition from brake to throttle (even though the transition itself can be quickened or slowed, depending upon the situation) has meant a lot to my lap times.

Thanks to all for the fantastic food for thought!