Keep Or Sell? 3RS/Spyder vs Cup

[Skypalace]

Re Cup Cars, I'm lucky enough to have both 996 and 997 Cups. I'd very very strongly recommend a 996 for someone looking to do even occasional DE's. Even though it's not a sequential, it's a great gearbox, I've literally never missed a shift in 7 years. The 997 Cup is noticably stiffer and tighter and more direct, and is a lot more work, both physically and mentally. And the braking without ABS is much much trickier on the 997 Cup. I knew it would be a difficult transition for me (I've always been a late braker, and done a lot of passing under braking), and as I mentioned in other posts, I've had to greatly adjust my braking, for example not being able to trail brake nearly as aggressively, in a non-ABS car. And ABS is of course a godsend in wet or damp conditions. A 997 can still be driven well in the wet (as I mentioned in another post I lapped the field in my last wet PCA race) but it's a heck of a lot more nervewracking under braking than the 996 was, when I could go late and let the ABS catch me if I was a little too aggressive.

The 996 Cup is still frigging quick and tight compared to any street car, but still has enough rubber in the suspension bushings that it's less twitchy than the 997. I rebuilt my 996 Cup gearbox once in 7 years (when I had the engine out getting rebuilt at PMNA) and it was actually fine, replaced one gear that was a little worn (2nd) and replaced the synchros. The 997 gearbox, even with the blipper, takes more of a beating, and I doubt too many people would get it to last 7 years with only a single rebuild. I know of multiple 997 drivers that have gone through multiple tranny rebuilds in a single year.

Re crew, I've done the vast majority of my races with a single crew person, as I normally register multiple groups, but 98% of the work is adding fuel, changing tires, checking tire pressures, and being on the wall with the radio, keeping me informed witch what's happening with my competitors etc. I've run many race weekends myself, with no crew at all, and if I don't have sessions too close together, it's fine. The only thing I miss is someone to check tire pressures at the wall, and letting me know gaps to competitors etc. during the race.

There are many things you likely won't need to worry about at a DE versus race that'll mean less reason to need crew help. You won't need to worry about which set of tires you'll practice on, qualify on, and race on, to be as competitive as necessary but without spending too much $$ on the tires. You won't need to have the car up on airjacks, with wet and dry tires both stacked, and wrenches sitting ready to go for swaybar adjustments, waiting to decide if you're going to go out on a wet or dry setup during changing weather. You don't need someone to call the race start, and you can make tire pressure adjustments between sessions, rather than in the hotpit lane. You don't need a crewman on the radio to let you know what's going on, to keep you calm if you're getting a little hyper or whatever. In a DE you just come in and relax if things are getting a little tense, or you've had an off, etc.

Yes you'll need a trailer since the car isn't strete legal, but that gives you the opportunity to carry some things that'll make a single person DE much easier. You can have both wet and dry tires. You can have a bottle of nitrogen for the airjacks, and an air impact wrench. You can carry a toolbox with everything you need to do brake pads and bleed brakes etc. if needed. The air-jacks and center-locks make changing tires so quick, I've literally left pregrid, driven back to my trailer, and single-handedly changed tires (ie. to rains if it starts to rain while on pre-grid), and gotten back in time to keep my grid spot.

Whether you have crew or not, you will want a good race shop to to do the work on your Cup car.

Every few weekends the pads will need to be replaced, it's easy to do yourself, it's even easier on the 996 than the 997 as you don't need to unbolt the rear calipers, all you need is a set of slipjoint pliers. Keep an eye on the rotors, esp. cracking from the outer holes to the edge, and have the shop replace the rotors when it's time (usually less than once a year in my 996 Cup).


Check your oil and brake pads and rotors every event, and every few events have fluids replaced, brake fluid flushed (I always fully replace, if they're going to bleed they're doing 90% of the work to fully flush). I also have a full nut and bolt done whenever in the shop, and alignment and corner balances redone, thinks just seem to move around a hair, even when none of the paint marks on the bolts have moved.

All that said, once you have a Cup Car (or any fully prepped race car) on track, it's very hard to go back. I've only done one DE since driving a full race car on the track, as any streetable car will be significantly softer and less precise. I thought my Dinan E34 M5 was a pretty good track car, I did many many DE's and instructed with multiple car clubs. Flat, fast, had stroked 3.9 litre straight 6 (gobs of torque, 411hp), camber plates, springs, shocks, sway bars, and I had a second set of wheels with R compound rubber.

I brought it to a BMW Club DE after racing a fully race-prepped RS America for a year. The BMW was only 3 seconds a lap slower, and significantly faster at the end of the straights and tons more torque out of the corners, but it felt like a Buick in the corners and under braking and esp. in lateral transitions. It felt so sloppy (after many years of being the quickest car at the DE) that I've never done a DE since.

I also found it incredibly frustrating to go back to waiting for point-by's etc. Your best lap at a DE (full lap without being slowed down by other traffic, all by yourself, able to do a fully clean lap) is the most boring lap in a race. I really love the stress and pressure of being competitive, and the psychological aspects of competition, trying to set up teh car in front for a pass, trying to induce them to make a mistake if you're equal enough that pure speed or braking won't get it done, keeping it together when a driver behind you is trying to do the same thing to you, etc.

I love racing a Cup, great cars, and they're spec cars - with a sealed PMNA rebuild and ECU, it's 90% driver and 10% setup that gets you the results. When I win a race, I know that I won the race, not my car or putting more go-fast bits on it. Esp. in a carefully inspected series like Pirelli Drivers Cup, all you have to play with is sway bars, wing, and tire pressures. Camber and ride height is restricted, so most everyone runs very similar setups there, and it's a spec tire.

And yes, a well-driven 996 Cup will easily take an average 997 Cup, esp. an earlier one. I finished many races in my 996 Cup ahead of 2/3 to 3/4 of the 997 field, even in competitive series like PDC. The 2010/2011 is a fair bit quicker, and at least in Pirelli Driver's Cup the average driver quality in the 2010-2011 is higher, so it's less common for the 996's to beat the 2010-2011 drivers. Of the five 2010-2011 Cups at my last race weekend (Portland Rose Cup), the top three of us had fast race laps in the first race within 23 thousandths of a second of each other. I had the fast race lap of the weekend (in the second Pirelli race), but was less than a tenth quicker than the next fastest.

Unfortunately the tricky braking I referred to above in the 997 Cup caught me out, and brake lockup caught me out in both Pirelli Drivers Cup races (front lockup and overshot turn 1 in first race, rear lockup and spun in turn 2 second race), so only finished 3rd overall in both. Too competitive a field to be able to make a mistake like that without paying the price :-)

[Canine64]

Originally Posted by Skypalace

Re Cup Cars, I'm lucky enough to have both 996 and 997 Cups. I'd very very strongly recommend a 996 for someone looking to do even occasional DE's. Even though it's not a sequential, it's a great gearbox, I've literally never missed a shift in 7 years. The 997 Cup is noticably stiffer and tighter and more direct, and is a lot more work, both physically and mentally. And the braking without ABS is much much trickier on the 997 Cup. I knew it would be a difficult transition for me (I've always been a late braker, and done a lot of passing under braking), and as I mentioned in other posts, I've had to greatly adjust my braking, for example not being able to trail brake nearly as aggressively, in a non-ABS car. And ABS is of course a godsend in wet or damp conditions. A 997 can still be driven well in the wet (as I mentioned in another post I lapped the field in my last wet PCA race) but it's a heck of a lot more nervewracking under braking than the 996 was, when I could go late and let the ABS catch me if I was a little too aggressive.

The 996 Cup is still frigging quick and tight compared to any street car, but still has enough rubber in the suspension bushings that it's less twitchy than the 997. I rebuilt my 996 Cup gearbox once in 7 years (when I had the engine out getting rebuilt at PMNA) and it was actually fine, replaced one gear that was a little worn (2nd) and replaced the synchros. The 997 gearbox, even with the blipper, takes more of a beating, and I doubt too many people would get it to last 7 years with only a single rebuild. I know of multiple 997 drivers that have gone through multiple tranny rebuilds in a single year.

Re crew, I've done the vast majority of my races with a single crew person, as I normally register multiple groups, but 98% of the work is adding fuel, changing tires, checking tire pressures, and being on the wall with the radio, keeping me informed witch what's happening with my competitors etc. I've run many race weekends myself, with no crew at all, and if I don't have sessions too close together, it's fine. The only thing I miss is someone to check tire pressures at the wall, and letting me know gaps to competitors etc. during the race.

There are many things you likely won't need to worry about at a DE versus race that'll mean less reason to need crew help. You won't need to worry about which set of tires you'll practice on, qualify on, and race on, to be as competitive as necessary but without spending too much $$ on the tires. You won't need to have the car up on airjacks, with wet and dry tires both stacked, and wrenches sitting ready to go for swaybar adjustments, waiting to decide if you're going to go out on a wet or dry setup during changing weather. You don't need someone to call the race start, and you can make tire pressure adjustments between sessions, rather than in the hotpit lane. You don't need a crewman on the radio to let you know what's going on, to keep you calm if you're getting a little hyper or whatever. In a DE you just come in and relax if things are getting a little tense, or you've had an off, etc.

Yes you'll need a trailer since the car isn't strete legal, but that gives you the opportunity to carry some things that'll make a single person DE much easier. You can have both wet and dry tires. You can have a bottle of nitrogen for the airjacks, and an air impact wrench. You can carry a toolbox with everything you need to do brake pads and bleed brakes etc. if needed. The air-jacks and center-locks make changing tires so quick, I've literally left pregrid, driven back to my trailer, and single-handedly changed tires (ie. to rains if it starts to rain while on pre-grid), and gotten back in time to keep my grid spot.

Whether you have crew or not, you will want a good race shop to to do the work on your Cup car.

Every few weekends the pads will need to be replaced, it's easy to do yourself, it's even easier on the 996 than the 997 as you don't need to unbolt the rear calipers, all you need is a set of slipjoint pliers. Keep an eye on the rotors, esp. cracking from the outer holes to the edge, and have the shop replace the rotors when it's time (usually less than once a year in my 996 Cup).


Check your oil and brake pads and rotors every event, and every few events have fluids replaced, brake fluid flushed (I always fully replace, if they're going to bleed they're doing 90% of the work to fully flush). I also have a full nut and bolt done whenever in the shop, and alignment and corner balances redone, thinks just seem to move around a hair, even when none of the paint marks on the bolts have moved.

All that said, once you have a Cup Car (or any fully prepped race car) on track, it's very hard to go back. I've only done one DE since driving a full race car on the track, as any streetable car will be significantly softer and less precise. I thought my Dinan E34 M5 was a pretty good track car, I did many many DE's and instructed with multiple car clubs. Flat, fast, had stroked 3.9 litre straight 6 (gobs of torque, 411hp), camber plates, springs, shocks, sway bars, and I had a second set of wheels with R compound rubber.

I brought it to a BMW Club DE after racing a fully race-prepped RS America for a year. The BMW was only 3 seconds a lap slower, and significantly faster at the end of the straights and tons more torque out of the corners, but it felt like a Buick in the corners and under braking and esp. in lateral transitions. It felt so sloppy (after many years of being the quickest car at the DE) that I've never done a DE since.

I also found it incredibly frustrating to go back to waiting for point-by's etc. Your best lap at a DE (full lap without being slowed down by other traffic, all by yourself, able to do a fully clean lap) is the most boring lap in a race. I really love the stress and pressure of being competitive, and the psychological aspects of competition, trying to set up teh car in front for a pass, trying to induce them to make a mistake if you're equal enough that pure speed or braking won't get it done, keeping it together when a driver behind you is trying to do the same thing to you, etc.

I love racing a Cup, great cars, and they're spec cars - with a sealed PMNA rebuild and ECU, it's 90% driver and 10% setup that gets you the results. When I win a race, I know that I won the race, not my car or putting more go-fast bits on it. Esp. in a carefully inspected series like Pirelli Drivers Cup, all you have to play with is sway bars, wing, and tire pressures. Camber and ride height is restricted, so most everyone runs very similar setups there, and it's a spec tire.

And yes, a well-driven 996 Cup will easily take an average 997 Cup, esp. an earlier one. I finished many races in my 996 Cup ahead of 2/3 to 3/4 of the 997 field, even in competitive series like PDC. The 2010/2011 is a fair bit quicker, and at least in Pirelli Driver's Cup the average driver quality in the 2010-2011 is higher, so it's less common for the 996's to beat the 2010-2011 drivers. Of the five 2010-2011 Cups at my last race weekend (Portland Rose Cup), the top three of us had fast race laps in the first race within 23 thousandths of a second of each other. I had the fast race lap of the weekend (in the second Pirelli race), but was less than a tenth quicker than the next fastest.

Unfortunately the tricky braking I referred to above in the 997 Cup caught me out, and brake lockup caught me out in both Pirelli Drivers Cup races (front lockup and overshot turn 1 in first race, rear lockup and spun in turn 2 second race), so only finished 3rd overall in both. Too competitive a field to be able to make a mistake like that without paying the price :-)

One of the best posts I have ever read on Cup ownership. This post alone should be made a sticky!!! Anyone even remotely thinking about a Cup should commit this to memory.

There are tons of Cup myths out there, with the 2 most common being the need for trackside support and high maintenance costs, especially with respect to engine hours/rebuilds.

Trackside support is really only needed for a race weekend---I utilize it for Skypalaces same reasons, and just want to focus 100% on driving. I never get trackside support for test'n'tune days or DEs, as I can flip tires/change pads/adjust pressures easily on my own.

In terms of engine hours/rebuilds, I know of several strong cars in the 150+ hour range running very competitively, as well as one with 250+ hours that hasn't missed a beat. These are Club Race cars---not pro race where rebuilds are much more frequent. I have adjusted my shift light several hundred RPM lower than redline as well.

Right now the 996 Cup is probably one of the best bang for the buck race cars available. Daniel Jacobs "Hairy Dog Grrrage" services my car and Dan firmly believes that the 996 Cup is the best race car Porsche has ever built. If you have the means to buy a Cup, do it!!! You will not regret it!!!

[hughp3]

Great write up. Enjoyed reading this. HughP3

[Skypalace]

Thanks, sorry for the length, I get carried away sometimes :-)

Re engine hours, I had a factory Porsche Motorsports rebuild on my 996 Cup with ~125 hours on it, had 3% max leakdown. Didn't think I needed it, but I was getting nervous about potential damage if something let go. PMNA said they'd never seen a cleaner high-miles engine, and told me that whatever I was doing, keep doing it.

My tips for long happy life of a Cup engine - always fully warm it up before high load or revs (hard on lots of things to not have both oil film, and various metal parts at operating temp and thus appropriate dimensions (expansion/contraction of various metals differ, the car is designed to run at temp, not cold)). Cool it down at the end of a session. Change fluids regularly, and don't scrimshank on the fluids (I use full synthetic only for all fluids etc.).

And #1: Don't miss shifts. I've had zero overrevs on that motor, in 7 years. I missed an upshift in an RSR from 4th to 5th at Daytona once (luckily into neutral and not into 3rd where it could overrev) because of the banking/loading, and the team mechanic suggested turning my wrist on upshifts so that my thumb is down, and pushing outwards to keep outward pressure on the shift knob. It feels strange at first, but I've been doing it always since then, and it prevents missed upshifts (and I use it from 6th into 5th also to prevent an accidential downshift into 3rd).

For other downshifts, I'm slow and deliberate, and 100% sure I'm in the right gear before releasing the clutch. Since I'm braking on the downshifts anyways, there' no need to rush horribly. If you want engine braking, just do the shift earlier, but release the clutch when you'll be at the appropriate rpm in the lower gear(after your blip of course).

I'm also very careful on upshifts to ensure the right gear is selected, with modified hand and slight rightward pressure preventing any leftward motion, the worst case from 2nd to 3rd is that you catch 5th instead (hurts your time but not your gearbox). It's 3rd to 4th that you need to be very careful to not get 2nd, esp. on a banked track, but again using the modified hand motion, worst case is the occasional 3rd to 6th until you've got it fully sorted.

I've missed more shifts with the sequential in my 997 Cup in my first session (I found you really need to be forceful on the downshifts, or it occasionally pops back into the previous gear) than I ever did in the 996.

[Trackrat]

Truly awesome stuff Skypalace! Thanks so much for taking the time and making the effort to post your comments! Really great food for thought. Still undecided what to do in the next few months, but there will be a Cup in my garage sooner than later

[Skypalace]

I just reread this entire thread after seeing the weekly digest, and thought I'd comment on the thoughts re Spec Miata.

I haven't driven a Spec Miata, but I was offered a chance to drive a 944 in the Thunderhill 25. I thought I was a pretty decent driver, but had only competitively raced reasonably powered 911's of various types, so the 944 would be easy, having less brakes and power and traction, it would be an exercise in driving the right line and not making mistakes that slow down minimum corner or exit speed.

After a few laps, I think I've got it figured out and I'm on a decent pace. I ask the crew what my times are like. I can't remember the exact details (it was 8 or 9 years ago), but I was about 3 seconds off the fast lap. So I start working harder, having to really start to work to get it and keep it where I want to be. Now I must be on pace, right? Nope, still over a second slow! Time to man up. So I'm now really having to manhandle the car, keeping it right at the limit under braking, mid-corner, and on exit, of every single corner, for every lap, to finally get on the pace, and finally get the fast race lap in the car. What I expected to be a fairly easy session was anything but.

I learned a big lesson though - a slower car is NOT always easier to drive, I found it no less physically and mentally challenging than the 996 Cup, at least to be fully on a competitive pace. Gained a lot of respect for 944 Cup and Spec Miata drivers, and had a lot of fun. Did I have as much fun as in a Cup? Heck no, I'm not crazy :-)

[FTS]

Originally Posted by Skypalace

I just reread this entire thread after seeing the weekly digest...

I am glad the digest are having an impact

I learned a big lesson though - a slower car is NOT always easier to drive, I found it no less physically and mentally challenging than the 996 Cup, at least to be fully on a competitive pace. Gained a lot of respect for 944 Cup and Spec Miata drivers, and had a lot of fun. Did I have as much fun as in a Cup? Heck no, I'm not crazy :-)

Interesting story. I always thought slower cars are easier to drive without much fun. The context is different of course, I can see how racing in spec series can be a lot of fun, slow or fast cars. But in DE environment, I find driving a slow car extremely frustrating. I am a competitive person, but only to a level. However, just driving around in my Cayman, before the GT3, was getting tiring and not much fun to the point that I was getting sour about DE'ing.

Nice input again Skypalace, thank you.

[GT THRE]

For your basic DE my GT-3 with some modifications seems to work for me. A Cup would probably be overkill. However, I have never driven in a Cup. To move beyond the basic DE, the Cup makes sense.

[Skypalace]

Originally Posted by FTS

I am glad the digest are having an impact


Interesting story. I always thought slower cars are easier to drive without much fun. The context is different of course, I can see how racing in spec series can be a lot of fun, slow or fast cars. But in DE environment, I find driving a slow car extremely frustrating. I am a competitive person, but only to a level. However, just driving around in my Cayman, before the GT3, was getting tiring and not much fun to the point that I was getting sour about DE'ing.

Nice input again Skypalace, thank you.

You're welcome!

I haven't done DE in years, I did one only after racing, but having to wait behind cars in corners made me crazy, after being able to pass whenever I was able to.

But I found it more and more frustrating doing DE's as I got faster (both driving and cars), as I spent more and more time held up behind other cars.

The challenge I had in the 944 was in the level of skill and concentration required to do a great lap. With a 'slow' car at a DE, as long as you're in an appropriate run group (ie. based on driver skill rather than car potential), you'd likely be able to do many clean laps laps practicing your craft, whereas in a faster car, you're much less likely to get fully clean laps.

What was getting frustrating about the Cayman? Was it being slow, or was it that you'd already done many DEs with it, so weren't learning or improving much any more, and thus the challenge and interest was going away, which came back once you moved to a different vehicle?

Whichever car it's in, have you thought about doing time trials, rather than just DE's, so that you've got something competitive to aim for (ie. improving your lap time and comparing it to others)? Now that most insurance companies have exclusions for DE events, it seems that one of the big reasons for not allowing stop watches etc. is gone. Of course the other (totally viable and significant) reason is to help reduce incidents from people driving past their abilities.

[FTS]

Originally Posted by Skypalace

What was getting frustrating about the Cayman? Was it being slow, or was it that you'd already done many DEs with it, so weren't learning or improving much any more, and thus the challenge and interest was going away, which came back once you moved to a different vehicle?

Slowness was not the issue, I think the Cayman is quite fast actually at the track; however, the learning mostly stopped, the excitement of driving it was lost. I never had a 911, although I had driven two before couple of decades ago. Once I got the GT3, it has been fulfilling all of my needs on/off the track and the joy of driving came back for sure.

I owned front engine, front drive cars, front engine rear drivers, 4x4s, AWDs, and with the Cayman I had my first mid-engine car, it was time for the rear-engine magic

I love time trials. I come from a stage rallying and autox'ing background, so running against time vs. wheel-to-wheel is very attractive to me. I did couple of NASA TTs, but the level of competition is really high, so I need to be much better prepared

[bman]

Thanks for the Cup perspective! The 996 CUP does seem to be the best choice for anyone looking to make the switch to a real track car; cost, performance and thrill are hard to beat. I've had offers to drive both a 996 and 997 Cups
....but I am afraid to drive either simply because I know I will buy one.

I still have a Cayman and drove it at VIR a couple of months ago and had a blast. It did feel like slow motion at first but the fun factor was high. I plan on spending more time in the Cayman, ironically, to further my learning. I am fortunate to have both cars, so I might as well get the most out of them.

Moreover, in a DE enviroment, it can be more satisfying hustliing past other cars in Cayman.....in a GT2 everyone expects you to be fast and often think you should be going faster With the Cayman, people stop by and say "where you driving this?" With the GT2 they only ask "what's your top speed on the straight?" I know......It's sad and lonely driving at GT2

[Skypalace]

LOL. It's not just at DE. From non-racers that stop by my paddock to look at my car, by far the #1 question I get is "how fast will it go". #2 is "do you have turbos" (usually very surprised when I say no), and #3 is "do you have nitrous".

People don't seem to get the whole car class thing, they see a 'fancy racecar' and assume you're allowed to do anything you want to do (it's a racecar, right?), and why would you NOT put turbos and nitrous on a racecar?

To be frank, I couldn't imagine bringing a Cup to a DE. I did DE's and instructed for many years before going racing. I did one DE about 2 years after I started racing, and it made me crazy having to hold up all the time and wait for pointbys, in the advanced/instructor group. And that was with a car 13 seconds a lap slower than my 997 Cup at the same track. That was one of the big reasons I went racing in the first place, and it totally reaffirmed it. Haven't done a DE since, I think that was 9 years ago.

[bperry]

I wish I would have seen this post 2 months ago; very informative. I recently slid down the slippery slope of Cup car ownership. But after reading it all I think I made the right decision buying a 996. I just acquired a 2003 Cup and have aspirations of club racing in a year or two. Now I don't know what to do with the .2 RS. Put it back completely stock for the street alone. Leave it track prepared for the occasional DE? Sell it to pay for all the Stickers I'm sure I'll be buying soon, Lol?

[FTS]

I do not have a cup car, so it is hard for me to justify what I am about to say; however, having driven a 997 cup and seeing how much Larry enjoys his 996 cup, I highly doubt you can truly go back to a street car on the track. The only way is up I guess. I think the market for 997 RSes are holding very nicely, and with credit being so cheap nowadays, it may be a good time to sell.

[bperry]

Originally Posted by FTS

I do not have a cup car, so it is hard for me to justify what I am about to say; however, having driven a 997 cup and seeing how much Larry enjoys his 996 cup, I highly doubt you can truly go back to a street car on the track. The only way is up I guess. I think the market for 997 RSes are holding very nicely, and with credit being so cheap nowadays, it may be a good time to sell.

Fatih, nice to meet you! Actually those were my thoughts as well. I would sorely miss the RS though. However it's hard to exploit the virtues of the RS on the street and keep ones drivers license or at least I have a hard time.