MovIt Carbon Silicon Carbide Rotors as PCCB Replacement?

[Gator Bite]

I've been driving a Cayman R with PCCB for a week and I can't believe how much bite and consistent modulation those brakes provide. Too bad I'd be afraid to subject them to track use, because of the potential cost of rotors.

[Trackrat]

MovIt update. Using OE sized carbon/silicon/carbide friction discs only, (not the calipers, not the available oversized rotors) I can report the following based on 15 track days (30-35 hours of race style usage on GT2/3RS :

1. Using a digital caliper there is no measurable wear of the friction disc. None. Zip. Zilch.
2. The original machine marks and crosshatch pattern is still visible on the surface.
3. The surface remains very smooth to the touch.
4. The "phonograph" style grooving is visible to the eye but not felt by the finger. Cosmetic only.
5. Pad wear time and tapered wear pattern is essentially the same as OE, perhaps a 20% improvement. Still require you to flip after a few track days. No billet calipers (yet) equal a tapered wear pad, just that simple.

Because these friction discs are so bulletproof, you can wait a bit longer than pad friction material being at thickness of backing plate rule of thumb for pad replacement. I am advised the friction disc will not be damaged (!) in the event of backing plate contact but not a game I am willing to play to get "one more session" from a set of pads. At least you are not playing with a $$$$ catastrophe as with the OE PCCB friction discs.

As far as friction disc (rotor) the MovIt Carbon/Silicon/Carbide product does appear to be a truly lifetime solution to worn friction discs (rotors).

I will be installing their new full system including billet calipers for GT3/GT3 fitment in approx 6 weeks as well as a massive, direct-replacement, rotors only, 396mmx40 front rotor and 380mm rear rotor kit (without the MovIt Billet Caliper) and report on those. Based on the superb performance of only an OE sized friction disc, the result should be "monumental".







The markings you see are cosmetic, surface is smooth to the touch.




Smooth as a baby's butt!



That is original honing marks/crosshatch you see there-



More original honing marks

[Gator Bite]

Can someone provide a ballpark price for a set? Or is that some kind of secret?

Was this evaluation set provided to you at no cost or reduced cost?

Since the factory PCCB discs seem to hold up OK until 10 or 15 track days, I'd say that the jury is still out on the longevity of these. I will certainly watch closely and hope the claims prove to be true.

I don't understand why a billet caliper would prevent tappered pad wear. Can you provide more info?

[Trackrat]

Originally Posted by Gator Bite

Can someone provide a ballpark price for a set? Or is that some kind of secret?

Was this evaluation set provided to you at no cost or reduced cost?

Since the factory PCCB discs seem to hold up OK until 10 or 15 track days, I'd say that the jury is still out on the longevity of these. I will certainly watch closely and hope the claims prove to be true.

I don't understand why a billet caliper would prevent tappered pad wear. Can you provide more info?

Hi Gator Bite- Price is going to vary based on exchange rate (Euro) and options (specific application, friction ring size, w or w/o hats, etc). There are more variables than one might think. The way to get a quote is to contact the USA MovIt rep: Tom@tfent.com. No secrets, I am sure he will be happy to help you (accurately) price a set. I have no financial interest or benefits from any sales he makes.

The pictured discs were provided to me not for evaluation purposes (however I used the opportunity to make that my personal mission ) but as a "loaner" set of friction discs because my full system (I paid full price) was much delayed due to a variety of reasons. I thought it was a strong customer service gesture for them to do that. When my full system arrives, then it's my option to return or buy these loaners.

Based on my experience with the now dead PCCB discs (pics somewhere online but I will post them again to this thread) on my Spyder and GT3RS there is no doubt whatsoever in my mind the Movit discs are proving to be light-years ahead in wear characteristics under track use condition.

There are a wide variety of posts, over the years, on RL and 6Speed (easily searchable) regarding the tapered pad wear issue. General consensus is that the caliper is not rigid enough and flexes under track use conditions.

According to MovIt literature:

"MOVIT calipers with its 6-piston BILLET design, have bigger pistons (13 sets of custom designed configurations based on application), longer pads (108 cm²), are BILLET CNC machined from the highest strength 7075 aluminum and are T6 heat treated.

The caliper is much stronger than others and will not loose its strength even under high temperatures like cast calipers. The aluminum which is used in cast calipers (alsi5 or alsi7) has a strength factor of approximately 31,915.4-34,816.8 PSI. With an additional heat treatment this strength can be raised to approximately 42,070.3 PSI. The reason why most manufacturers use heat treated aluminum is simply the price. The material used for each "MOV’IT BILLET-CALIPER" has a strength factor of approximately 79,788.5- 82,689.9 PSI. So, the possibility to expand under growing pressure and heat is totally eliminated. CNC machined calipers need less space than cast calipers that can be used with a bigger disc under the same rim then the cast calipers. The material and the extremely strong and "wide" design of the "MOV’IT BILLET-Calipers" means the pressure to the pad is applied evenly even under extreme pressure, greater then 21,754.5 PSI. The heat is transferred to the maximum possible surface area, the temperature stays lower and the durability of all parts is higher. Cast calipers do not compress the pads evenly to the rotor when they expand under higher pressure or temperature. So, the rotor is not evenly heated and the pads wear faster and unevenly. A loss of the already lower braking force of cast calipers"

I do have a full MovIt system on my Spyder now since December: http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforum...-insanity.html which I paid full price for. After approx 7 hours of tracking, it is proof to me that MovIt offers a high-priced but even more high-value solution to those of us seeking a "lifetime" brake system for which we don't have to buy rotors ever again or flip pads after every 2 track days. There is no noticeable pad wear nor is the paint on the pads even discolored! (pics attached) That performance is hard to argue with.

It won't be a solution for everyone, or even most, as the value proposition can be a challenge to wrap one's head around. But it is there and it is quite compelling for those who have researched the current OE and aftermarket offerings and found them unsatisfying.

Folks who have read me over the years on RL/6Speed/TeamSpeed/RennTeam 2.0, and know me in person are aware I am an early adopter, and experiment with outside the box solutions. And then I post what my experiences are. Some are good, some not so much. To those who are not aware of my background and history might think I am a guerrilla marketer, but the truth is I am a "free-marketer" and a manufacturers greatest advocate or worst enemy. My efforts (100% voluntary and unpaid) on building gt2gt3cup.org are recent proof of that claim

Your questions are good and appropriate and if I can expand on anything I am happy to do so, just ask!

Spyder w/MovIt full system:



Seven hours of hard track time. No pad discoloration, rotors look new, no noticeable pad wear.

[Gator Bite]

Good stuff. I don't mean to accuse you of 'guerrilla marketing'. I just want to understand all the dynamics.

I'm not sure I totally buy the whole theory on tapered pad wear. If it were caused by a structural weakness in the caliper and it flexing, wouldn't the pads wear in a curve, less wear in the middle of the pad, more on each end where the caliper is clearly stronger because that's where the front and back are connected?

I would expect tapered wear on any large surface area brake pad that is mounted in a multi piston caliper. On any brake pad, there is going to be a certain amount of torque applied to the pad during braking. What will a motorcycle do if it brakes too hard? It will flip forward because of that torque. That torque is normal.

When we have a multi piston caliper, like the 6 piston units on your car, the pistons can move independently from one another, which allows the torque to turn the pad over time and wear the pad unevenly. Now the best way to compensate for this is to stagger the piston size with smaller pistons close to the leading edge and larger pistons closer to the trailing edge. I know Porsche does this on my 4 piston unit, I'm guessing they do the same on the 6 piston unit. But apparently they haven't staggered the sizes enough.

If the MovIt calipers stagger the pistons differently, this may have an effect on the tapered pad wear.

[FTS]

Originally Posted by Gator Bite

If it were caused by a structural weakness in the caliper and it flexing, wouldn't the pads wear in a curve, less wear in the middle of the pad, more on each end where the caliper is clearly stronger because that's where the front and back are connected?

I would expect tapered wear on any large surface area brake pad that is mounted in a multi piston caliper. On any brake pad, there is going to be a certain amount of torque applied to the pad during braking. What will a motorcycle do if it brakes too hard? It will flip forward because of that torque. That torque is normal.

When we have a multi piston caliper, like the 6 piston units on your car, the pistons can move independently from one another, which allows the torque to turn the pad over time and wear the pad unevenly. Now the best way to compensate for this is to stagger the piston size with smaller pistons close to the leading edge and larger pistons closer to the trailing edge. I know Porsche does this on my 4 piston unit, I'm guessing they do the same on the 6 piston unit. But apparently they haven't staggered the sizes enough.

Well not necessarily. The caliper shape, its metallurgical construct, piston design, all play a significant role in how heat is spread across the caliper and dissipated. Few years ago, Racecar Engineering mag pushed some technical articles from PFC on their NASCAR calipers and how the new Z-rated designs were making noticeable performance differences. I could not locate the article on their web site, but the following thesis is a very close approximation of what PFC was claiming:

http://soar.wichita.edu/dspace/bitst...pdf?sequence=1

I find Pete's adventures in testing "stuff" to satisfy his curiosity quite interesting, I really appreciate you taking the leading on finding and using these rare products Pete, thanks

[Trackrat]

Originally Posted by FTS

I could not locate the article on their web site, but the following thesis is a very close approximation of what PFC was claiming:

http://soar.wichita.edu/dspace/bitst...pdf?sequence=1

I am only to page 35 of the thesis and look forward to finishing it and fully digesting it this weekend. One thing immediately learned- don't throw away those "useless" metal plates clipped onto back of pads Unless you want to play with overheating your calipers!

[mdrums]

Pete, thanks so much for the updates on these rotors. I look forward to your testing and reviews and am lovin this website too. I'd have these MovIt rotors in a heart beat but I'm afraid to even bother the MovIt rep and ask what the price is and if they even make these as a replacment for a 997 Carrera S...same sizing as 996 Turbo.

[mdrums]

Originally Posted by Trackrat

I am only to page 35 of the thesis and look forward to finishing it and fully digesting it this weekend. One thing immediately learned- don't throw away those "useless" metal plates clipped onto back of pads Unless you want to play with overheating your calipers!

That is some very interesting stuff! I've been using Ti inserts on the back of my pads from TiSpeed and they really do work at keeping the heat out of my stock calipers.

[Terry L]

FWIW, an observation on pad tapering - when I use Pagid RS29s on my steel brake GT3.1, they will taper every time. I once switched to Pagid Blacks, which destroyed the stock rotors (rings of Saturn big time) but no taper wear at all. I have no idea why this should be.

[stujelly]

Good info trackrat.

Thanks for the update. Still such a pricey option. I converted to steel on my 11 rs. I will be at road america this weekend to see the difference. Not sure what to expect.

[TRAKCAR]

Hey, we met Stuelly today.

Great group of guys, but they forgot to bring beer to the track and we ran out of alcohol..
We must be circeling at the opposit side of the track because I have not seen many RS around me yet.

[W8MM]

My Carrera GT PCCB rotors are starting to look pretty crappy and the pads make a scuffing noise when I apply the brakes in situations that are quiet enough to hear them. My Porsche dealer says I might get a few more track events out of them, but they are showing surface de-lamination and won't last forever. This is somewhat off-putting since the parts quote is circa $22,000 for 4 rotors, then it is PLUS installation.

I have been having an e-mail conversation with Mov'It USA and it seems they have a GT2/GT3RS-based solution that includes rotors, calipers, pads and a special emergency brake caliper for the rear to fit the Carrera GT. Their price is North of the OEM rotor replacement, but not too much for their whole caboodle.

My question for any users of Mov'It ceramic brake systems is how they feel and respond on the street. Do they behave in a normal way, or would you who have them only recommend them for the track?

[Trackrat]

Originally Posted by W8MM

My question for any users of Mov'It ceramic brake systems is how they feel and respond on the street. Do they behave in a normal way, or would you who have them only recommend them for the track?

"Perfect"

Once the pads are bedded, it feels great on the street. As good or better than OE PCCB. I have them on Spyder and GT3RS and love them. Wet/dry/track/street- all excellent.

Caution: Do not ever use the P50 Green PCCB pads with the MovIt rotors! Terrible brake feel. P50's are bad for street for OE PCCB as well and I would personally never use them on any PCCB system for any situation, even tracking (and I have 4-5 P50 sets used under my belt).

[W8MM]

Originally Posted by Trackrat

"Perfect"

That's very encouraging. I might just have to "update" my Carrera GT with better brakes!

I'm going to a 918 event in Weissach in a few weeks and I'll try my best to coax some more brake info out of their engineers.