Keep Or Sell? 3RS/Spyder vs Cup

[mooty]

some disagrees with me. but i am certain that cup car CANNOT be DE'd.
i am at BW right now.
in my stripper. i ran the race group and red, the fastest group of PCA here.
the stripper isn't that fast, i have traffic every 3 turns. i am on someone's bumper. one instance, i moved fast, else i would be in his cabin down the front straight. after one session, i only ran the race group. with cup, you will be on brake a lot than on throttle due to traffic.

[tcsracing1]

i love a good CUP as much as the next guy but.......

for the sake of a few D.E/track days whatever; having to trailer the car, store the car, wrench the car and crew the car on occasion will take its toll on you and become more work then play.
If you also mess up the sequential box it is 25k.

This is why porsche make the "clubsport" RS in europe. For those looking to have a decent track car that can also be easy to own/street legal. It is the best of both worlds.

Since you already have a "clubsport" RS, you can decide how much further you wish to push the envelope by further stripping the car if you really want to go faster. (light weight doors, interior etc.)
With a stripper .2RS you can run with 996 CUPs until the tires fall off.... the 3.8RS will go down in the history books as one of the best 6 speed p-car street strippers of all time. You will see a lot of these RS models at tracks in 20 years. Fully stripped and on trailers.

in 2013, when the 991 GT3 takes the flag as the faster/better Porsche you can then either completely strip the RS and run PCA stock L class as a racer etc., or sell it because you will be bored of D.E in the car by then and will want to upgrade to 991 GT3 if it indeed is really all that and a bag of chips.

Now, that being said, by the time 2013 rolls around you may actually want to sell the RS track trainer and buy a 991 CUP to taste a little racing. Keep the spyder as a collector/toy porsche, as all CUP racers should have at least one old street Porsche to hold in the garage to remember their roots..

[CWS]

Originally Posted by Trackrat

Lol..I will

See, I feel the same way right now? All my track pals with exception of one (Mike!) have street cars and it is fun chasing each other on track.

Yes, it would be very hard for me to part with the blue car, a labor of love for sure. 4.0 arriving mid/late-Aug.

That is my other concern- I arrive, unload car and drive in current situation. The blue car require minimal upkeep/prep. Nut and bolt it, check pads, that's it.

I have heard, but don't know the facts, that a Cup is going to require much more time dedicated to maintenance and consumables. I was talking to Fatih last night and told him my concern was that it would be like a (big) boat- your two very best days are the day you buy it and the day you sell it

Arrive and drive or even going to Barber 2-3 times a year might be the better financial proposition to do some occasional Cup driving for fun?

So I do appreciate everyone making comments as it helps me to clarify my thought process. It is a high-class problem for sure and I/we are very fortunate to have these kinds of things to worry about

Okay, let me try to give you a serious response.

1. I would always, always, always keep a 3 RS for lots of reasons, not least of which because it's a special car. Beyond that, there will likely be times when you may not want the hassle of transporting/supporting the Cup or events were you don't feel like bringing a Stinger missile to mix it up with the bare-knuckle brawlers.

So the question on the RS comes down to whether you plan to mod the 4.0 RS (assuming this still has a slot in your warehouse) or bubble-wrap it. If you plan to track and mod then swap all the parts from the 3 RS, return the 3 to stock and sell. Otherwise keep the 3 as your street-legal track toy.

2. Buying a Cup purely for PCA DE events is definitely overkill. Having just spent two days at DE event at The Glen driving and watching Cup cars mix it up with street cars, I can tell you that it's not uncommon to see mid-pack drivers in older Cup cars climbing all over even heavily modded street cars. As an example, an experienced black run group driver I attended event with was running modded Turbo with JRZs/stiffer springs, Hoosiers, etc. He said the Cups were coming up on him like a freight train. He'd have a clear mirror one second then a few seconds later it'd be filled with Cups - didn't matter 996 or 997 Cup. That was on a big wide-open track. Can't imagine a smaller track.

With those caveats aside I'll say that there's no comparison between driving a Cup and a modded street car (short of a full stripper but then what's the point) on the track. Given your trajectory it's inevitable that you'll eventually get into a Cup. Just recognize that it shouldn't be your only track-day tool.

To use an east coast example, it's unlikely you'd want to do a Lime Rock PCA DE where the track is small and the run groups large, but taking it to an limited-participant, open-track Murry event where coaching is part of the equation would be a no-brainer.

3. The fragility of the sequential box is overblown IMHO. The few weak links, such as 3rd gear issues, are easily sorted, and now with everyone running auto-blippers the boxes last just fine as long as you don't do something stupid. Consumables are more about the driver than the car. If you're constantly on the edge you'll use more; not so much, less. Doesn't matter the car.

You seem set on a 997 Cup so I'll save the 996 vs 997 analysis. Just remember that the absolute speed differences between the two are small enough that a better driver in a 996 Cup will be faster than a less skilled driver in a 997 Cup. I'd caution against making too big a jump at once. Jumping into a much faster car without transitioning through intermediate cars is one of the worst mistakes you can make in terms of driver development.

[Trackrat]

Man, this is seriously good stuff. Nothing like the voices of experience Thanks to everyone for the contribution!

Originally Posted by mooty

some disagrees with me. but i am certain that cup car CANNOT be DE'd. i am at BW right now. in my stripper. i ran the race group and red, the fastest group of PCA here. the stripper isn't that fast, i have traffic every 3 turns. i am on someone's bumper. one instance, i moved fast, else i would be in his cabin down the front straight. after one session, i only ran the race group. with cup, you will be on brake a lot than on throttle due to traffic.

No surprise, you are a fast guy in a fast car I suppose BW would be considered a tight track and technical so would be big differences in speed between those who know the track and those who don't.

Originally Posted by tcsracing1

This is why porsche make the "clubsport" RS in europe. For those looking to have a decent track car that can also be easy to own/street legal. It is the best of both worlds.

The 3.8RS will go down in the history books as one of the best 6 speed p-car street strippers of all time. You will see a lot of these RS models at tracks in 20 years. Fully stripped and on trailers.

Now, that being said, by the time 2013 rolls around you may actually want to sell the RS track trainer and buy a 991 CUP to taste a little racing. Keep the spyder as a collector/toy porsche, as all CUP racers should have at least one old street Porsche to hold in the garage to remember their roots..

You have been there and done that (x2 lol) and what you say makes perfect sense and I cannot argue with the logic. In fact I agree with all of it

Originally Posted by CWS

Okay, let me try to give you a serious response.

1. I would always, always, always keep a 3 RS for lots of reasons, not least of which because it's a special car. Beyond that, there will likely be times when you may not want the hassle of transporting/supporting the Cup or events were you don't feel like bringing a Stinger missile to mix it up with the bare-knuckle brawlers.

So the question on the RS comes down to whether you plan to mod the 4.0 RS (assuming this still has a slot in your warehouse) or bubble-wrap it. If you plan to track and mod then swap all the parts from the 3 RS, return the 3 to stock and sell. Otherwise keep the 3 as your street-legal track toy.

2. Buying a Cup purely for PCA DE events is definitely overkill.

With those caveats aside I'll say that there's no comparison between driving a Cup and a modded street car (short of a full stripper but then what's the point) on the track. Given your trajectory it's inevitable that you'll eventually get into a Cup. Just recognize that it shouldn't be your only track-day tool.

3. The fragility of the sequential box is overblown IMHO. Consumables are more about the driver than the car. If you're constantly on the edge you'll use more; not so much, less. Doesn't matter the car.

You seem set on a 997 Cup so I'll save the 996 vs 997 analysis. Just remember that the absolute speed differences between the two are small enough that a better driver in a 996 Cup will be faster than a less skilled driver in a 997 Cup. I'd caution against making too big a jump at once. Jumping into a much faster car without transitioning through intermediate cars is one of the worst mistakes you can make in terms of driver development.

Again, a strong, compelling case put forward by a man who is a similar situation. Your comments are spot-on and perfectly sensible.

This thread is already priceless and should be stickied for all the other tortured souls who will be coming here after me and asking the same questions.

I can see it coming already- a DE run group for race prep cars (Cups) only. HOD is already doing that out here at some events.

Thanks guys, awesome stuff!

[FTS]

Originally Posted by Trackrat

This thread is already priceless and should be stickied for all the other tortured souls who will be coming here after me and asking the same questions.

You're an admin, if you feel it is right thing to do, do it

But I think the advice is quite true. For DE, open tracking or even time trials, not worth the hassle of owning a Cup car. It will require a crew, many other things to worry about that you are not even aware of right now, and at the end, you'll be, ... let's say, 10-15 secs faster a lap; so what?

I think the best part of a Cup car is if you were going into racing and the option was whether to build a race car from ground up vs. a Cup out of factory, then it is a no brainer.

[jenk12m]

Some really good advice being handed out. With regards to if you wanna race, I've talked to some pro drivers and they all say it's best to go to a lower HP class for a year or so. For instance, miatas, 944's etc before jumping into a cup car. Just something to think about

[raysmd]

get the cup car and a membership at a track that has member only days. Those days are usually run with a few drivers. You won't have to worry about traffic then.

[ssort]

you need to go racing in a spec class (or other, depending on your budget and how much money you have to burn) and see what that is all about. nothing like wheel to wheel racing. DE days are like kindergarden. do it for a few years and have a blast. it puts everything else in perspective.

[FFaust]

Pete, don't worry too much about, or listen to the voice of reason, it does not belong in this discussion.

The cup is obviously on your mind, so you should get one, even if only to get it out of your system. Only then will you be able to answer the many questions raised (too fast, too high-maintenance, too raw, etc.). And only then will you know what to do with the existing fleet. Go and discover the answer for yourself

If you buy carefully, selling won't be too painful, if it even gets to that.

As far as market for well modded cars, there absolutely is one, and I am the perfect example: I got my 6 "because" it was fully modded, and I was/am absolutely thrilled about it. Who would not rather buy a car that's ready v. one that will need the mods eventually? The only problem is that such a market IS smaller; not everyone understands. Returning your cars to stock would be a crying shame.

- You can't say you have no interest in racing until you get closer
- What does Mikymu think about the experience so far?
- I am not convinced that the maintenance costs on a cup would be that much more than on our cars if not raced. And if they are marginally higher, well so be it. I'm pretty sure that it's not about cost for you at this point...
- I would get a cup just for the thrill. Matter of fact, I considered a 996 cup that would have been cheaper than my GT3, but *I* wasn't ready logistics-wise (for me, it's still about the $$)
- Yes, a cup might be too fast for the run-of-the-mill DE, but as has been said elsewhere, there are options

Finally, if you can, you must. Cause if I could, I would... and I just might.

Lots of words, sorry.

[lightweight]

^ Great post. Straight to the heart of it. Another option Pete: one might devote some entrepreneurial ingenuity to borrowing, renting, or leasing one prior to purchase / ownership. That way a purchase decision is better informed

[Festina Lente]

Originally Posted by lightweight

^ Great post. Straight to the heart of it. Another option Pete: one might devote some entrepreneurial ingenuity to borrowing, renting, or leasing one prior to purchase / ownership. That way a purchase decision is better informed

^
Exactly the pertinent point to the GT3 Cup experience and you get to compare it to the GT3 and Turbo under the same conditions which helps calibrate the scale, relative appeal and fit. For me, it made the GT3 easier to drive (and push) but then again I stay well within the envelope and, for sure, there is no driving contract in tomorrow's mail for me.

I know if I could handle the speed (and expense!) that I would certainly take a Cup Car over any modded car.....period! It is cheaper in the long run; and has the benefit of professional development and testing versus the good idea, trial and error process which poses as "superior" engineering in many instances.

When extremely high speeds are involved, the predictable, tried and true evolution equates into peace of mind and makes for exciting moments.. instead of excitable moments.

But if you like to tinker...that brings it own (though different) rewards which are not a substitute for a comprehensive package.

YMMV

[mooty]

Originally Posted by raysmd

get the cup car and a membership at a track that has member only days. Those days are usually run with a few drivers. You won't have to worry about traffic then.

then you have no one to chase or be chased.
i no longer do private track day for that reason.
i want the right traffic. for example, my car is 100hp down and 100 # more than 2000 996RSR's. i can keep them in sight for about 3 laps. those are the three laps i am going 110% and scary myself shitless.
however, i know pete well.
i think he should just buy it and i will use it to scare other DE'ers.

i like that idea.
let's go for it.
i can get a dually and 44' gooseneck so i can bring pete's car with me everywhere ;-)

[FFaust]

Also, IMHO, an off in a street car destroys a lot of the resale value, not so much in a cup...

[Trackrat]

Originally Posted by ssort

you need to go racing in a spec class (or other, depending on your budget and how much money you have to burn) and see what that is all about. nothing like wheel to wheel racing. DE days are like kindergarden. do it for a few years and have a blast. it puts everything else in perspective.

Good idea, makes sense!

Originally Posted by FFaust

Pete, don't worry too much about, or listen to the voice of reason, it does not belong in this discussion.

Finally, if you can, you must. Cause if I could, I would... and I just might.

Lol... Bunch of co-dependents in here, I gotta spend some time away...

Originally Posted by lightweight

one might devote some entrepreneurial ingenuity to borrowing, renting, or leasing one prior to purchase / ownership. That way a purchase decision is better informed

That is mighty good advice methinks

Originally Posted by Festina Lente

^
Exactly the pertinent point to the GT3 Cup experience and you get to compare it to the GT3 and Turbo under the same conditions which helps calibrate the scale, relative appeal and fit. For me, it made the GT3 easier to drive (and push) but then again I stay well within the envelope and, for sure, there is no driving contract in tomorrow's mail for me.

But if you like to tinker...that brings it own (though different) rewards which are not a substitute for a comprehensive package.

YMMV

PSDS would be a great way to get a proper introduction to Cup. I am thinking seriously about attending.

Originally Posted by mooty

i know pete well.
i think he should just buy it and i will use it to scare other DE'ers.

i like that idea.
let's go for it.
i can get a dually and 44' gooseneck so i can bring pete's car with me everywhere ;-)

Hmmm, I see your confusion technique there. I was agreeing with you there for a minute

Originally Posted by FFaust

Also, IMHO, an off in a street car destroys a lot of the resale value, not so much in a cup...

Another good point.

[amaist]

I think if you get a Cup car you will want to race it. Maybe not 8 races per year. I'd be happy with 2 races and the rest spend developing/DE/lapping. I don't know your situation in terms of other car. Over here a Cup would fit right in in the local club that is not expensive to join (around 6k per year for 26 weekend days or so) Plenty of track time and mostly among cars of similar or faster speed. There are a couple 944s in the race car group but you lap them every 5 or 6 laps. All other times you can dice it with other Cups, chase a race prepared Viper or get out of the way of the Stohrs every 6 laps.

On the other hand there is plenty of opportunity to have fun in a "regular" GT3 or RS over here. The same club has plenty of fast cars in the street group and local PCA chapter is GT3 central with lots of good drivers. The black run group (right below red) is the fastest group on average I have driven with anywhere.

So I would judge this on who you can run with and if you can race. You will want to race it even if it's once a year.

I don't think you need full track support for DE/lapping stuff. For the race it's essential. Yes you can survive without it but you are doing it for fun, right?