I Am Agonizing T3 at VIR...

[FTS]

The analytical part of me gets me crazy sometimes, can't help it. It's been two weeks since we came back from VIR, and T3 just bothers the heck out of me. Here is the question I have for anyone that care to comment:

Which turn is harder to take: VIR T3, VIR T10 or Summit Point T3? Each is slightly different in some ways, but I think they are have more similarities than differences.

[Larry Herman]

Sorry Fatih, but I do not agree with you at all. Each of the three turns have nothing in common save that they are all left handers. Nascar, the easiest IMHO, is a straightforward, fairly flat left hander with a straight runup and a predictable exit followed by a very short straight. It is probably the visual aspects of it that make it seem harder than it is.

Wagonbend (Summit T3) is a tricky corner that requires you to brake over a bump, bending gently to the left, and get on the power before you commit to the turn, because the hill will catch your car, and you do not want any rotation going into it. Otherwise the front will bite, and the back will slide. It is your consummate DE, brake straight corner. You cannot be timid here because there is a lot of time ot be lost if you are slow over the hill.

South Bend (VIR T10) is by far the trickiest as it not only is the fastest, but you come in hot, with the car light, farther over to the left than is optimal. You have to get it slowed under control, but if you overbrake, it kills your momentum and your grip, and you have nothing going down the hill. If you over cook it, the runoff is not pretty. Just ask Rick DeMan.

[FTS]

As a matter of fact, I agree with your comments. T10 at VIR has an arc of 315 degrees and radius of 185, T3 at VIR has an arc of 280 deg. and radius of 140. I could not find the planimetric drawings of Summit Point, just ball parking T3 has similar radius to T10 at VIR.

My issue is I have not yet figured out why my avg. speed through T3 of VIR is between 55-59 mph vs T10 with avg. speed of about 82-88 mph, and similarly T3 at Summit my avg. speed is 74-79 mph. Given that T3 at VIR is the easiest out of the three and radius differences being relatively small, I am trying to figure out how I can best go through T3 at VIR with closer to 70 mph avg. speed.

There is no question that I am over slowing into that corner, but why? It may have something to do with the curve at the approaching line to the turn that prevents me from looking into the corner sooner, or something. I certainly don't want to hit the tire wall on either side by trying drastic speed increases, but I gotta try something different for sure

[SH || NC]

Is there more track out at 10 vs. 3? It seems like it to me. I take 10 early, then track out far right, vs, if you take 3 super early, you run out of track early. 10 is smaller than 3, to me

[FTS]

I don't think the track is wider at T10, at least not that I can tell from the drawings, but it has slightly larger radius which may be giving us the illusion that it is wider.

[SH || NC]

Not so much wider, but you can make it through T10 without a lot of steering angle, which allows for more speed, at least for me comfortably. Watch your inputs for 3 vs. 10; I bet you have more at 3

[SH || NC]

Here is a quick and dirty of what I am trying to communicate. I could be totally wrong, but 10 just flows better to me.

[FTS]

Those are great comparative pics and you are right. However, I am not yet convinced that the steering input difference is the sole source of being 20-25 mph slower through a turn that is actually easier to see; would you not agree?

[SH || NC]

Of course! Rarely is there just one source of variability.

I haven't sat down and tried to dissect it, but perhaps its because you're already carrying more speed at 10, in a short, flat straight and needing to brush the brakes or lift slightly vs 3, where you are accelerating hard out of 2 and trying to maintain balance in a sweeper and then brake right before turn in. IDK There are a lot more competent drivers than me who I'm sure will chime in.

[bman]

Do you mean your average "lowest" speed?

Originally Posted by FTS

my avg. speed through T3 of VIR is between 55-59 mph

Assuming you mean your low speed, than 59mph is not too shabby in Nascar bend.

I've "studied" a 1:59 lap where the low speed in T3 was 59mph. And another with a stock '10 GT3RS doing a 2:04 with a low speed of 55mph.

So you're in good company

Originally Posted by SH || NC

Here is a quick and dirty of what I am trying to communicate.

That's a cool picture!

[FTS]

I should have been clearer, avg. speed at the apex, not lowest or avg. through the whole turn. That is good that I guess we are at normal speeds, but I haven't figured out the 20-25 mph difference yet. If I can figure it out, then I'll be able to, hopefully, have a different strategy for it.

For example, I need to remind myself to try trailing a good bit into T3 to see if I can make up some of the time I am losing there, but don't have the guts to do that at T10 as some drivers are able to do.

A 135 driver claims to even take T10 at 105 mph on run-flat tires, so I am way off on some of the turns still

[SH || NC]

That's good info re: speeds in T3. I am mid 50s there as well IIRC. It feels like it could be faster; I think Alex (ukrbmw) was faster (link) but that wasn't min speed I don't think, and he had no on screen data.

Thanks Brian. A couple of screen captures, cropped in Paint, pasted into Word, and then captured and cropped again; best I can do on my work machine.

[FTS]

Here is my only video from the last FSR event. The data is also quite revealing, but also generates new questions for me, just quite interesting for me. The short of it, I think it is much more mental approach to T3 and all others and I am just not able to use most of what the tires could offer. Keep learning...

[SH || NC]

- Agree 100%; T3 is mental for me as well
- our turn in speeds I think are nearly identical
- tilt your camera down a little!
- ugh; the trains
- man I want to get back out there so badly

My only comment that is on topic is, yes, I think it is mental, however, like you said, much faster laps than ours, their speeds are similar through these turns, at least T3.

[bman]

Originally Posted by FTS

A 135 driver claims to even take T10 at 105 mph on run-flat tires, so I am way off on some of the turns still

I'd like to see that! Again on the 1:59 lap the driver is 95mph through T10. 105mph on run flats ???? Best I've done is 89mph